Closed Caption Log, Council Meeting, 03/04/99

>>Goodman: we are going to start our proclamations and our first proclamation is for american red cross month. We have somebody -- oh, yes. Steve sprowel? who is the chair of the board of directors. Let me offer this proclamation from us. Be it known by these presents, that I, Kirk Watson, Mayor of the City of Austin, do hereby proclaim March 1999 as red cross month in Austin. Presence presence and all on all citizens to join us in recognizing that the people of our nation show a long tradition of compassion for others in lending aid to those in need. In recognizing that for 83 years the american red cross of central Texas has served the people of our community by bringing both comfort and practical assistance to the victims of hundreds of disasters. As well as providing services to the military and their families, by sponsoring local health and safety courses, and in many, many other ways. Also in commending all of the generous and caring individuals who have donated their time and effort to this most worthwhile organization and in encouraging everyone to actively support the red cross through donations and as volunteers, to ensure that the american red cross will be able to continue its nobel mission of helping others into the 1st century and beyond. We always think of you during the disasters so it's time we thank you when hopefully none is going on and we can spend some time just saying thanks. [Applause]

>> on behalf of the central Texas chapter of the american red cross, we are proud to accept this proclamation. Our focus is on keeping Austin and its citizens and families safe and we are going to continue to do that with your help. Thank you very much. [Applause]

>>Goodman: now, since this is about to be proclaimed purchasing month as well, we had better have our major purchaser up here. Sue brubaker. And everybody else that you want to bring.

>> I don't like to do things by myself.

>>Goodman: this proclamation is to let it be known that Kirk Watson, Mayor of the City of Austin, do hereby proclaim March 1999 as purchasing ho in Austin. And calls on our citizens to join us in recognizing the strong business climate, purely spirit and economic vitality of outside, entrepreneurial spirit. In recognizing all of the men and women in the purchasing profession who have joined in founding napm Austin, an organization that is affiliated with the national association of purchasing management, and in recognizing that the activities that this association have contributed immeasurably to the development and in answerment of its members to Austin's economic success as well as to the creation and proper mullation of a business code of ethics. Promulgation code of ethic. In fact where would we be without you? thank you very much. [Applause]

>> Mayor Pro Tem, Council Members, thank you very much. On behalf of such a wonderful organization, wonderful group of people that are part of it, I would just like to say that there's another organization, they are present today, the national institute of governmental purchasing, have been also a leader right along with napm in developing those wonderful professional organizations and standards and keeping us all on our toes. The president of the local organization is with us, that's John hazard, and he will say a few words. But I would like to just take this moment, if I may, to recognize one of my own staff members who was named by the napm as the outstanding purchaser of the year and that's vick, thank you very much. [Applause]

>> I am John hazard, president of napm Austin, I would like to thank the City for proclaiming this purchasing month. Just very briefly for those of you not aware of our association, we are over 300 members strong, representing both government as well as commercial purchasing in the city of Austin. We are affiliated with the national organization of purchasing management. Monthly you will see our napm manager's index in the newspaper as one of the key indicators that the government uses for business climate. Again, thank you very much, we appreciate it and look forward to serving you in the following year. [Applause]

>>Goodman: okay. We are going to do something a little special. This is not a proclamation. I would like to ask Paul turcott, the publisher of yahoo internet life magazine to come up. Austin is going to be a very special recipient here and I am very happy to welcome Mr. Turcott, come on up.

>> Thank you. Nice to meet you. Thank you, Mayor Pro Tem. As we all know the internet has become a -- very quickly has become a major part of all of our lives, in our businesses, personal lives, at our homes, as the nation's leading consumer magazine for the internet about the internet, last year we actually decided to do a story on featuring who are the most wired towns in america. And the result of that story was so phenominal both from the readers and from all of the different cities that we instantly decided to make this an annual feature in the magazine. This year in our March issue, we have done the second annual feature on america's 50 most wired cities in america. As the country moves forward towards the 21st century, technology continues to grow at an astounding rate. Our survey results proved from town to town america has indeed embraced the internet in its life, in governments, schools and it's in our lives. The great City of Austin provides its citizens superior access to the world's most important new medium, for that we congratulate you. I am thrilled to announce that Austin ranks as the second most wired City in america and in fact your City ranks number one for home users in fact quite dramatically, 32%, the next town is 25%. So again for that we congratulate you. I would therefore like to present you, Mayor Pro Tem, as a representative of your City, with I guess a plaque, an acknowledgment of your success. Congratulations.

>>Goodman: thank you very much. [Applause]

>>Goodman: yeah, really,.

>> What's the first one?

>> a little town called san francisco. Last year you were number 4. This year number 2.

>>Goodman: that's not bad. Thank you very much. I just realized that from going from laid back we are now to wired. I don't know if that says anything. [Laughter]. Split personality. Okay. Music. I would like to introduce carlos cedillo. Guitarist carlos cedillo is trained in composition, classical guitar and jazz. He developed an eclectic taste in music while living in venezuela. While attending college he researched ethnic music from brazil and india as well as 20th century composers from europe and latin america. He has performed annually for the Texas civil rights project. And currently is creating a set of works based on melody ies from the indigenous peoples of Mexico. These works are for solo guitar and will be submitted to national competitions. Let me read this proclamation to a marvelous musician. Be it known by these presents that Kirk waits son, Mayor of the City of Austin, Texas, does here by proclaim March 4th, 1999 as carlos cedillo day in Austin. And call on all citizens to join us in recognizing the many outstanding contributions by the local music community toward the development of Austin's social, economic and cultural diversity and in recognizing the dedicated efforts of artists which further Austin's status as the live music capital of the world. Thank you very much, carlos. And feel free to say a few words, tell us where we can hear you and after -- after your performance as well.

>> Thank you. By and large I'm a private performer, I play for private parties and dinners and what have you. I would like to thank wendy morgan and brenda for inviting me here today and making this possible and my mom is here. [Laughter]. I just want to say that family is kind of an important thing for me, I wouldn't have been able to do this without the support of my family. And the piece that I am going to play is from brazil. By a composer named palo belanote. It's called pulo delgato. I originally planned to play a piece of my own, but for time purposes, I won't. I would like -- like the introduction said, I really am interested in bringing international music to -- to the United States and Austin. Hope you enjoy it. [Applause] (guitar music) [applause] (no audio).

>>Goodman: thank you very much. Before we begin the meeting, we would like to ask associate pastor karl goreck of bethel assembly of God to give the invocation. Thank you.

>> Heavenly father we thank you today for our fine City Council and leadership they provide for our City. We ask right now, Lord, that you will just bless these meetings. I ask right now that all of the problems will be worked out, all of the situations will be resolved, father we just pray today that your will will be done in Jesus name. Amen.

>>Garcia: [inaudible]. Frustrated church issues, I always thought that the baptist church was a property testant church. I have come to find out they are not. Protestant church, is yours a protestant.

>> I guess we would like to be considered that as much as possible. We are basically evangelical. Along the same lines as baptists.

>> [Inaudible].

>>Garcia: when I was in the army -- when I was in the army they only had three kind of churches, jewish, catholic, property testant. I thought all of the ones -- protestant.

>> Denomination lines vary.

>>Garcia: thank you so much, I will put that into my --

>>Goodman: we have been asked to postpone the approval of the minutes for February 24th and 25th. No. Wait, have we convened, we have to convene, I forgot. We are convened, there is a quorum, we are in session, we will postpone the minutes for a week.

>>Garcia: I wanted to say Mayor Pro Tem that I like this format. I recommend it. That we put some additional things in there to make sure that we have everything included. But putting them in the order in which we acted on them is helpful.

>>Goodman: me, too. Okay, let's go to citizen communication. Our first speaker is jimmy castro.

>> Good afternoon, Mayor pro tem, Council Members and Mr. Garza, I speak on my own behalf and the Austin chamber of commerce and the Austin Travis County chamber of commerce. I encourage everyone to attend this year's 62nd annual travis county livestock show and rodeo between March 12th to the 21st. Today the livestock show and rodeo is a grand scale celebration that attacks tens of thousands of visitors, a favorite events for the entire family includes judging of hundreds of live animals by members of the 4 h club and future farmers of america. In 1998, the show generated almost one million in proceeds, prize award and scholarships. Travis county students will have the chance to further their education thanks to these efforts. This particularly apply ies to those who might not otherwise have had the golden opportunity. [Speaking in spanish] the livestock auction generated more than $465,455 for 271 Travis County 4 f and faa student participants. Since 1984, more than 5.7 million dollars have been awarded to the livestock show participants. [Speaking in spanish] the hundreds of young people who wear those blue and gold jackets of the ffa wear them with pride. [Speaking in spanish] and indeed the future promises to be bright. Because agri business in Texas is good business. [Speaking in spanish] thank you.

>>Goodman: thank you very much. Our next speaker is grace lehto. And I'm not sure if I mispronounced that, I'm sorry if I did.

>> [Inaudible].

>> Actually I am here to speak about drainage in the carson creek area. I want you to know that nothing has improved. As a matter of fact it's gotten worse because now the people to the north are building things up. And making us into really -- really into a bowl. What we are -- chris Williams, one of the City workers has suggested that all of the people in that area get together, which is a fine idea with me, but I don't think it's really realistic. I have two other suggestions. Either we win the lottery and buy out all of the neighborhoods and fix it ourselves, or one of the other things is that we file a site plan to bring it to grade -- our property to grade level and in actuality build a 10 foot levee around our property. Because we don't think since they are not doing anything to the other guys they are not going to do anything to us. Anyway, that's what I had to say. It's not getting any better. Sorry to be a broken record.

>>Goodman: thanks, grace, great looking puppy. [Laughter].

>>Goodman: they have great dogs.

>>Garcia: are people here from from --.

>>Goodman: mike was.

>>Garcia: watershed protection?

>>Goodman: I think he's in the back.

>>Garza: mike heights was here earlier as was pat murphy, but I don't see them in the audience right now.

>>Goodman: okay.

>>Garza: mike did you hear the question?

>> I did not.

>>Garza: carson creek.

>>Garcia: is that in our etj or some of it in our City limits?

>> it's outside of the City limits, we do have part of it along the main frontage road is in the City limb but as it goes back it's off the City limits. I would have to find out exactly the area, this is where Mr. Empy who has been coming with some of the problems, we have other problems in that area. There's another piece of property we have been made aware of that's also doing some fill in. Supposed to fill some pits, not supposed to really raise the grade. We are working with that property owner. But as we start annexing in that area, we will be putting together a plan, again it's the same as with Mr. Empy, that whole area we are looking at.

>>Garcia: is there some way for us to work with the county on this issue?

>> sure, we can do that.

>> Thank you.

>>Goodman: how long would it take to get with the county?

>> okay we can contact them tomorrow or first of next week and start that process going. We are, though, trying to monitor any new development that's going in that area that's within our City limits or in our etj that's going to cause any problems on dawn stream flooding. We have been trying to monitor that and control that.

>>Goodman: thank you. Keep on trying. Okay. Gus pena is our next speaker.

>> Good afternoon, Mayor pro tem, Council Members. Mr. City Manager. Gus pena, president of east Austin concerned hispanics and a proud member of vietnam tejanos organization. First of all I would like to congratulate the following district representative officers from A.P.D. Who work in the community, specifically south central, charlie sector, East Austin. Supervisor sergeant carlos botello, carlos casas, sharon cannon, jovita lopez, carla knickerson, les york, with a superb highly effective outstanding leadership of botello of charlie sector, they have worked to improve the safety, well-being, quality of life of the residents in this sector. I have been working pretty closely with these officer, with the sergeant and for the last two or three years as some of them have been neighborhood center officers, they have been doing a very good job, professional, their conduct and demeanor are above reproach. We would like to commend them personally and publicly, they will be receiving certificates of appreciation from our organization, other organizations because they have improved the quality of life in this particular area. I don't work closely with other dr officers, but these offers are doing a good job, I want to commend them, sergeant carlos botello, they treat us with respect, like human beings, a job well done. Second of all, I spoke with residents who live on west mary street and Mayor Pro Tem and Council Members and Mr. Jesus Garza, their opinion and suggestion, actually their consider is to install four way stop signs instead of four way yield signs. Again this morning one collision and six near collisions, people are not stopping. They are not even yielding and I wonder if they could pull out the dictionary so they could read the definition of yield. And you have postal office trucks, semi trucks that travel in that particular area to get on the south fifth mail station, post office station. They don't slow down. So you can imagine the concern that we have as residents of that area. Lastly, Mr. City Manager, we would like to see some services that are improved over at the he will jikt office at clinics. Sometimes I personally have observed some of the lack of professionalism some of these city employees have had toward the clients who have to go up there and ask redundant questions. I bet you think don't want to go back up there to even renew their clinic cards or their map cards. If we can improve that service. When I was a bailiff officer at municipal pal court, even though the definite did not like the judgment that the judge rendered, I caught the flack, I acted professionally. So please again let's act accordingly. Last item, the people who pick up the trash, solid waste, I believe, are taking some of the waste -- plastic bags full of trash in the neighborhood and putting them in our trash can and then emptying the trash can into the trash can. I lodged a complaint with Johnny and willie rose left a message for him, I would like to hear some sort of a response from the director. I haven't heard anything so far. The employees acted very rudely. Merely I ask please don't do it again. Guys said what you couldn't? none of your business, you want a piece of me? that's not acceptable. Please look into that again I would appreciate it.

>>Goodman: thank you very much. Could we also look into what it takes to get stop signs there? this isn't the only time my office has had comments on that particular --.

>>Garza: is that south fifth by the post office?

>> west mary, south first, south second intersects with west mary. You have traffic calming devices.

>>Garza: the four way stop sign for south third and second?

>> yes, sir.

>>Garza: four way stop signs on both of those intersections?

>> yes, sir, that's the recommendation and suggestion from the residents along that area requested.

>>Garza: we can look into it. The warrants -- you need to have warrants to justify a four way stop sign, but let me ask them to take a look at that.

>>Goodman: they do have yield signs now it's amazing how many people I guess really don't know what yield means. Okay. Mike haney.

>> Hi, I wrote all of y'all I guess two letters a few weeks ago, I have a cat problem. And I have just recently moved from 8th street and west lynn, there was multiple ferral cats, just would I. I contacted the health department, animal department. Because there's no City ordinance on a maximum amount of cats, there's no leash law, they are not allowed to pick up the cats. So I bought a trap and trapped them, took them to the pound, these are wildcats. And I recently have bought a house and moved to a different location and I can't get away from t cats. The neighborhood across the street from me has 15 cats. Out in the lawn. It's a terrible problem. I mean, you can imagine they use everyone's lawn as litter boxes and walk on the cars. What I would like to do, think this problem is City-wide, is propose some type of limb on the number of cats. Right now in the City of Austin you can have six dogs. I don't understand why you can't have -- you know, we feed to set a number of six cats. Just a week ago on the news, there was a gentleman he had 80 cats. I mean that's ridiculous and it doesn't seem civilized and in addition the City of Austin has set a goal of the year 005 as a no kill policy for the animal control shelter. I need with the supervisor Diane from the animal control. And she says for us to meet that goal, we need to set a limit of a maximum amount of cats and a leash law for cats, not necessarily to prevent you know if you have a single cat from walking around. But in cases where there are feral cats this gives the opportunity for the City to be able to pick up the cats whereas now they are not allowed to. I would just like to know what can I do to start a process of getting some type of laws or ordinances regulating this?

>>Goodman: I think the first thing that you would need to do is go to the animal shelter advisory board because this is not an easy issue. Nor is it black and white. I think they might appreciate your coming to them so they can talk about it. Then they can recommend it.

>> That's all taken care of through the animal advisory board, they make a recommendation to you all?

>>Goodman: the process that we usually engage in is there are boards and commissions focused on certain areas of endeavor in the City. If we third got a recommendation on land use for instance it would would have gone to environmental and planning. If there's a recommendation on pet limitations or anything related to that, we would expect it to come through that advisory board first.

>> Okay. Thanks.

>>Goodman: thank you very much. Before I call the next two speakers, I have been asked to remind us that on the -- on the concession bid procedure, there is a no lobbying provision and so I just wanted to make sure everybody knew that who signed up. So that if you are in fact on one of the respond -- response teams or response companies, you would not appropriately, I think, legally, be supposed to be on citizens communication. So with that having been said, let me call sam rivers and John hicks son, if there is no problem with that with either of you.

>>Slusher: Mayor Pro Tem, let me ask -- would that -- I would like to ask the City attorney the lobbying provision, that would also cover citizens communications anti-lobbying provision on the contract?

>> that's correct.

>>Slusher: okay.

>> With that in mind, Council Members, my name is sam rivers, although I initially started Texas rowing school some 14 years ago, I have no been an owner now for over six years. I come to you as a concerned citizen. The process itself seems ironically mirred in the fast track process, but I would like to talk about a larger issue and that is what I understand, a gentleman brought forth a fantastic proposal, very well capitalized to present a new boat house. This is a great idea. The rowing community is very much behind this, we are behind this. The public is behind this. But should this be at the expense of a very successful school that has provided access to hand did I capped, to -- handicapped, we started the youth programs in Austin to citizens of Austin all around the United States, we are considered one of the top schools in the United States. Do we need to eliminate this school to provide for another wonderful opportunity? I see this as a win-win situation. Let's -- we need rowing, let's promote it. So I was confused, I said I will to go the parks board or parks department and look through the framework being the Town Lake corridor study. It asks to promote rowing, wants to see more boat houses, et cetera. The Town Lake park comprehensive plan, which outlines the plan for the park again does not limit the number of boat houses that we are looking at here. So I talked to stuart strong in the planning to again maybe is there a problem to create this win-win, there's not. We were told it was going to be a long and lengthy process. In fact as you know the park plan was put into an ordinance, which means anything that's not specifically in this plan needs to be amended. Which would require simply the Council asking the parks department to do so or the parks department requesting that you do so. This is not a very long arduous process. So again I am simply here to say that the solution to this seems to be again assuming that everybody on the Council and the City seems to want to promote rowing, to look for ways -- for ways to provide for another boat house, if not one in the future more boat houses. Thank you.

>>Goodman: thank you. John hicks son. -- Hickson.

>> Good afternoon, I am John hickson, I am a rower at the rowing club currently, I am not involved in the business operation in any capacity. So I assume that it's appropriate for me to speak. I am here today to express my concern about two decisions that the parks and recreation board and staff have made. Sometime during the past year, the parks department has decided to change the nature of services of the rowing concession on Town Lake, which is currently operated by the l'axiron rowing school. I understand that the department wants the operator to offer boats that do for the require any sort of training to operate. They want these boats to be offered in addition to the types currently offered, because they believe that the public will be better served. Because the current operator would like to operate the facility as a rowing school, dedicated to the sort of rowing, the board has decided to recommend to you that the concession be awarded to another bidder. This decision was made at the board meeting held on Tuesday, February 23rd. I am opposed to this decision for several reasons. The most important one being safety. The recommended bidder, the rowing dock is proposing to offer pontoon boats for the use of untrained individual. I have visited their website, I have seen a copy of their craft. Here is a look at it. I see the operation of this boat by untrained individuals as a hazard to everyone using Town Lake, because these boats operate -- are operated facing backwards. Just like trained rowers do in sculling shells. The individuals rowing must turn around to navigate as they row. As an individual with some experience with rowing, I am quite aware of how dangerous this is. One evening, for example, I was even forced to quickly navigate to avoid collision with a capital cruises motor boat because they were cruising down the lake on the wrong side without any lighting after sunset. I am concerned about the aesthetics of these boats as I understand that the rowing dock proposes to store them on the lake locked to the dock. I question this and have heard unanimous opposition to the appearance of this craft from everyone I have shown this photo. During the board meeting last week, I was given the impression that the board saw our school as -- as exclusive because it is commonly referred to as a club. I would like you to be aware that this is a common term for a facility of this type and is no way intended to imply that l'axiron is restricting access to the public. The other rowing facility on the lake which is operated by a non-profit organization, the Austin rowing club, even uses this term. I would like to invite each of you to visit the l'axiron rowing club this weekend so that you may see for yourselves the true nature of this operation. Thank you. [Buzzer sounding].

>>Goodman: thank you very much. Our last speaker is barrett sandberg.

>> Hi, Mayor Pro Tem. Honored Council Members, I am barrett sandberg. I am a member of windsor park neighborhood association and am here to request your help in holding a sell brigs at Mueller airport after it closes. Most people interested in Austin air facilities are thinking about the opening of the new airport at Bergstrom. But as you might imagine the neighborhoods near Mueller are more interested in closing the old one, so we would like to celebrate on the airport grounds the day of the closing or the day after. You are of course very cordially invited all of you. You may share with me the vision of the Mayor wielding a ceremonial jackhammer and Council Members and neighbor representatives walking away with pieces of tarmac. The City Manager may have informed you of his own vision which includes a large stray aircraft swooping in by mistake. We do understand that closing a major airport is a logistical task of huge proportions and situations do mitigate against a runway ceremony. We would like to hold one somewhere scenic on the airport grounds. Maybe at the entrance sign on manor way. Some sort of ceremony by or including the neighborhoods would be much appreciated by the neighborhood residents. The City and neighborhoods have been planning this days for years. The City's consultants have been using strong efforts to utilize neighborhood input. In fact it may become a showcase not just for smart growth but for peaceful production cooperation between neighborhoods and City planners. Members of the Mueller's neighborhood coalition and Austin neighborhoods Council have endorsed the idea of a celebration somewhere on the airport grounds and anc has formally passed a resolution supporting it as has the windsor park neighborhood association. I will ask that you pass a resolution directing the City manager to find a way so he has the authorization to go ahead and make sure that happens.

>>Garza: if I could with the issue that was raised when it was first brought to the aviation staff was that it wanted to be on the runway for 30 days after closure on may the first there will be operations that will continue on the runways for -- whether you have -- what do you call those, fixed based operators and things of that nature. It will be 30 days basically -- there was a concern about safety to be on the runway. But I don't think that that was the same issue that if in fact you wanted to have it somewhere near the terminal or in the entrance at manor and entrance into pershing lane, that doesn't pose the same safety issue, that's a different request altogether. And right now the staff is obviously very preoccupied and very singularly focused.

>>Goodman: we will keep on working on it.

>>Garza: I don't need authorization, you can pass a resolution if you would like. I was going to have a Council come to the Council, in fact I asked it to be prepared because the request was to be on the runway. They informed me here's all of the stuff, it could be a safety issue for our citizens, the Mayor wielding a jackhammer -- [laughter].

>>Garcia: that would be scary. Grrs but in any case if it's not for the runway, somewhere else, if you will contact my office, we will get chuck and others at the aviation department that will work with you.

>> Great thanks a lot.

>>Goodman: thanks, barrett. Okay. Those are all of the speakers, let's go to the changes and corrections. Item no. 12 Should read recommended by the planning commission. Number 25 should read: agreement with two firms as opposed to tow firms. No. 30 Should read: recommended by the planning commission and environmental board. 31 Should read: recommended by the environmental board. As should 32. Recommended by the environmental board. Number 34 should read: approve a resolution authorizing a settlement of a claim assertedded by as opposed to the execution of. Number 35 should read: with the option to extend the contract for one additional term of 12 months. Instead of an optional 12 month extension. In an amount not to exceed $179,500 for a total amount not to exceed $376,900. Number 56 should read: approve an ordinance creating an Austin green building task force, sponsored by Council Member Gus Garcia and Mayor Pro Tem Jackie Goodman. Number 38 is pulled from the agenda. The applicant has withdrawn that zoning case.

>>Garza: Mayor Pro Tem, I would like to pull item 14 and 15, we have to work on a couple of issues, I think we can get those worked out this week, have that back on the agenda for the 11th.

>>Goodman: items 14 and 15 pulled from the agenda, will be back later. Not later today, some later time.

>>Garza: we think we can have those questions answered and it reformatted for the 11th, which is next week.

>>Goodman: okay. Items pulled from the agenda. Okay. Now I am not sure that I have the very latest but let me try what I have here because I don't see a different list. Item no. 12, And item no. 13 Pulled by Council Member Lewis, item no. 14 And 15 were pulled by Council Member Slusher, but since the City Manager already pulled those, too.

>>Garza: I talked to Council Member Slusher.

>>Goodman: okay. Item no. 20 Is pulled by Council Member Spelman. Item no. 30 -- Oh, Council Member Slusher did you want a special consideration or time or something?

>>Slusher: I think we should take this up with the public hearing that's related to it.

>>Goodman: we will pull 30 out of that particular position. Item no. 34 Pulled by Council Member Lewis. Item no. 35 Pulled by Council Member Lewis. Item no. 37 Pulled by Council Members Lewis and Garcia. Item no. 53 By Council Member Slusher. I believe no. 17 And 18 were pulled but are now back on the agenda.

>>Spelman: that's correct, Mayor Pro Tem.

>>Goodman: thank you. Those were pulled by Council Member Spelman. And now returned.

>>Spelman: that's also true for items 39 through 52, which I pulled and those can go back on the consent agenda as well.

>>Goodman: okay, thank you. Are there any other items then that we want to pull or -- do we have a current list of all --?

>>Spelman: Mayor Pro Tem. I was one of the three parties responsible for pulling item no. 37. My questions have been answered, so I have no objection for it to going back to the consent agenda if Council Members Lewis and Garcia have no objection.

>>Goodman: okay. Do you -- are you okay, too, Council Member Garcia? do you still want to pull number 37?

>>Lewis: I don't have -- my questions was answered on it. Even -- yeah. Yeah. There will be some questions come up later about it. But I -- I had talked to the taxi drivers so my basic questions was answered on it.

>>Goodman: okay.

>>Garcia: we just received the list of answers to our questions. I haven't looked at them, so I want to leave it pulled until I read it.

>>Lewis: what -- where --.

>>Goodman: okay. So the consent items are: 16, 17, 18, 19, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 31, 32, 33, -- wait. 36, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, 54, 55, 56, 57, --.

>>Garza: 57 will be at a time certain at 3:30.

>>Goodman: beg your pardon? oh, 3:30, right.

>>Garza: that's right.

>>Goodman: other. I inadvertent at the timely said 38, that one was pulled off the agenda. We will skip 38, 39, 40, 41, et cetera. Did we have a settlement we were going to do? on item no. 80.

>>Lewis: which other item did you say before 80?

>>Goodman: beg your pardon?

>> that is correct.

>>Lewis: which item did you say before 80? did you say one just before 80?

>>Garza: she said 38 was off the agenda. Is that right Mayor Pro Tem?

>>Goodman: yeah, I just had automatically read 38 when it was withdrawn.

>>Garza: phil durst anddy Martin, I know they were here, I know they can hear me, they were here to make a brief presentation on number 80. If you want to take that on con san antonio.

>>Goodman: are we okay with taking 80 on consent or do we want to pull it?

>>Lewis: we -- grarz andy can make a very brief presentation if the Council would like or phil. I am asking? I don't know.

>> Mayor Pro Tem, honorable Council Members, I am pleased to report that the mediation process has proved successful, we were able to reach a mutually agreeable solution with the developer, anderson who sued us to finish out a project at 29 on and mopac. The City was able to reach a mutually agreeable solution where he would be able to finish out this development and put in two stores in a rather sizeable development already, but to do so, to obtain the permits he will have to improve water quality, has pledged to improve water quality on the site both by treatment and improving retention to s.o.s. Levels, not just for the new levels of construction, but for part of the old as well. He's going to reconfigure and down size the development to make it better for water quality and will participate either directly for on land mitigation within the barton springs zone or contribute to the City's effort to retire land to the barton springs zone. So this is another case where business interests in the City were able to sit down and talk together and work things out. I urge you to accept the settlement.

>>Goodman: any questions or comments? thank you. Okay. So ... Item 8 0 is on consent as well. Let me go back through this one more time. Beginning with item no. 16, 17, 18, 19, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 31, 32, 33, 36, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, 54, 55, 56, And 80.

>>Garcia: Mayor Pro Tem? on item no. 37, If everybody is okay, I've had a chance to read the matrix and everything else, I am okay with it. So just go ahead and put it back on consent.

>>Goodman: okay. We are adding number 37 back on to the consent agenda. Which leaves items pulled 12, 13, 20, 30, 34, 35, 53. Okay? okay. So do we have a motion on the consent?

>>Spelman: move approval.

>>Griffith: second.

>>Goodman: there's a motion and a second. Last chance to pull an item. All those in favor?

>>Garcia: I want to make one quick comment. On 37 I was somewhat surprised that we only received one proposal, but I guess that's -- that's because of the size of the airport, is that -- is that the answer, Mr. City Manager?

>> my guess is it's size and it's -- it's not very many vendors that do this kind of function.

>>Garcia: okay.

>>Goodman: all in favor please say aye. Opposed or abstaining? okay. Back to item no. 12. Which was Council Member Lewis's pull. Oh, the vote was 6 to 0. With the Mayor temporarily absent. Councilmember Lewis did you pull item no. 12?

>>Lewis: thank you Mayor pro tem. I pulled item 12 and 13 just before we did get -- I did speak with the -- some of the staff members. And they were showing me some changes, possible changes that would be made. I just -- I left it on the -- off of the consent agenda because I wanted to make a statement concerning the -- our process. Because I think that the one thing that -- one of the signals that we are sending people is that our process is not what we -- what we make it out to be. But we -- we tell them -- we say one thing, we accept something totally different. And I had talked to some of the people from o'neal construction earlier on when we did two other contracts and this is the type of thing that I think most of the contractors out there is looking at. It's whether or not we are going to do what we say or whether or not we are going to allow things to go through, even though we proper fest to -- profess to have an ordinance. Most of the contractors that I have been in touch with is saying that even though you have an ordinance it doesn't mean anything because you don't adhere it. I do think maybe in the future we will either get rid of the ordinance or we may be able to put some teeth in it, one of the two. On that grounds I will move approval of items 12 and 13.

>>Goodman: okay. There's a motion and a second to approve items 12 and 13. Further comment? oh, wait a minute. Beverly. Okay. All those in favor please say aye.

>> Aye.

>>Goodman: that passes.

>>Garza: it's an ordinance, you will need five votes.

>>Goodman: okay. Five. Items no. 12 And 13. Five with Council Member Spelman temporarily off the dias and the Mayor temporarily absent. Okay. Next item is no. 20. Pulled by Council Member Spelman.

>>Lewis: we can go to item no. 34.

>>Garza: 34 and 35, right Council Member?

>>Lewis: yes, is there somewhere here from the new airport team.

>>Garza: yes, there is. Can you -- veronica can you go find chuck Griffith, I saw him in the audience a minute ago. Chuck don't leave, he forgot he had one other item.

>>Goodman: well, do you want to go to item no. 53. Councilmember Slusher is on the dias. Do you want to go to another item while we wait for them. We will just wait for somebody.

>>Garza: Mr. Griffith is on this -- on his way. Arnie, step forward. Good afternoon I'm arnie rosen berg the deputy director for the new airport project team.

>>Lewis: I have a couple of questions concerning item 34. One is I can understand the fact that they discontinued the contract for renovation of two buildings; is that right?

>> that's correct.

>>Lewis: with the contention that the airport would expand in what the next 10 to 12 years.

>> The original plans indicated that the terminal would expand somewhere in the 10 to 12 year range. However based upon the projected -- recent projections of growth at the airport, including the five gate add dig, it was felt that -- addition, it was felt that the next expansion of the airport could occur as early as five to seven years down the road, rather than 10 to 12 years down the road. Based upon that and the monetary investment on temporarily facilities, the department of aviation looked into alternative means of providing those facilities at a reasonable cost. They entered into negotiations with the people -- the valley port company that was providing other facilities on site and were able to negotiate a lease of reasonable costs over a 10 year period. That they felt would be more economical than providing temporary facilities for as little as five years for the same money. So they opted to continue and lease the space, new space on the site that could be customized more easily for the operations and maintenance function rather than going through and rehabilitating these two buildings for -- for a shorter but indefinite time period.

>>Lewis: well, my question is we -- even though you are saying that it's possible to do an expansion, do we have people for the five gate expansion that we just did? is all of them -- all five gates being occupied now? I mean --

>> when we went into the five gate expansion, there was a need for one additional gate. Other additional gates have been taken, I believe, on opening day we will have now only two gates available.

>> That's right.

>>Lewis: we have two gates that's not available, but we expect to do another, what, 12 gates in -- I mean, how many gates in the next 10 years? what's the --

>> the next expansion would probably be a similar five gate expansion on the east side of the terminal.

>>Lewis: well, the reason that -- the thing that bothered me is with -- with a what, $26,000 difference, we -- we are basically paying bela freight, a group that we sponsored the bonds for, to -- for 10 years and then after that we are going to have to make another determination as to what's going to happen to this -- the group that we we have in the velo freight building. Do we get the building after 10 years?

>> I will have to defer to chuck, the director of the aviation department to talk about the business terms on that.

>> No. They have a longer term lease net. The building, though, is not in the way of future intention. The major reason for not going forward with these two buildings, renovating these two buildings was as you may recall, bely port which is an essential function to us because they handle the airline belly freight, came to us and said we don't have enough tenants to get this building started. We had to get it started. So we looked at these two buildings we were going to renovate and decided it made good economic sense to save the renovation money and to rent the space from belly port. That was really the reason that we went that direction.

>>Lewis: what's the length of the lease that belly port has?

>> I would have to go back and look, I don't know right now.

>>Lewis: what are we going to do after 10 years, after paying $2.21 --2.3 million for lease, what are we going to do after that?

>> I think at that point we would have to look and see whether we want to build our own fall or not. Probably well in advance of that we would decide whether we want to build our own facility or not.

>>Lewis: it seems to me that we were billing out belly freight because they got approval for the bonds, whether or not they could do the building to size is something that they should have made a decision on before we had to make a decision. If we don't -- if we don't do this lease agreement, then what happened to belly freight?

>> well, the lease agreement has already been done. That came to Council about two months ago, probably.

>>Lewis: well then what is this we are approving today?

>> this is simply a settlement of the contracts with the construction company that was going to remodel the buildings we are not going to remodel now. To get out of those contracts we had valid binding contracts with them. To get out we negotiated a settlement with them $150,000.

>>Lewis: basically we are paying with the settlement we are paying $2.381 million dollars if you add the $150,000 to the 2.13 that we are spending for the lease.

>> But we are saving, I don't have the exact figure, I don't know whether you know it or not, a substantial amount of money in renovation costs of those two buildings.

>>Lewis: well, what I am trying to figure out is we had a contract for $2.257 for the renovation. And if you save -- like we was going to use that 2.257 for -- to have our people, we wouldn't have had a lease cost, right? that would have been the amount of money that we -- that it costs to house the group, right?

>> that's correct.

>>Lewis: since we are going to pay lease, now we are paying 2.31. You add the 150,000 on it, that's 2.3, that's more than we would have paid to renovate the buildings.

>> That appears on a dollar to dollar basis, but the lease cost is fixed over the 10 year period, so if you take the life cycle cost of money and you brought everything back to present worth, the actual present worth of the lease is less than the present worth of the renovation.

>>Lewis: we have been making these projections on the expansions and the time and the growth of the airport. And very few of them have panned out to be true -- well, 50% of them maybe. Some of them have been ahead, a lot of them has been lagging. My question is that we are paying more now than we would have paid if we would have renovated the building. It just appears to me that we are bailing out belly freight. What did we do now at Mueller for belly freight?

>> it's handled in a number of facilities. On airport. So they have facilities there. Let me mention something else, too, of course we are moving into a newly constructed building. We would have had to move into a very old not in terribly good shape even if we renovated it buildings. So we think over the long haul we are going to come out better being in belly port than we would in those renovated buildings. I expect over 10 years we would have spent some money on those renovated buildings.

>>Lewis: well, you know, it just appears to me, and like I said, belly freight wanted the bonds passed for the amount of money that they needed to build a facility. The Council approved it. Now they are coming back saying they can't do it unless they get more tenants. It seems to me that we are bailing them out now for something they didn't find out before.

>> I am not going to speak on their behalf, you may recall that the major tenant they had was the post office. The for post office frankly surprised us all when they said their long range plans were to have their own airplanes or at least an airplane, so it became better for the post office to go over in the cargo area instead in the belly freight. It created a problem for belly port.

>> Well, I don't know. I still have a problem with paying more even if you bring money back to the present value. You know, we still owe $130,000 more for the money now if we would have went on and renovated the building than we are paying for the lease agreement, including the agreement, the $50,000 cancellation of the contract. That's what bothers me. When you look at it in -- in dollar amounts. Then we are only looking at it in the case that we need to do an expansion. If we don't need to do an expansion, that means we push it, we have the buildings even longer. That's what -- that's what I am basing this theory on is that -- is that at some point we knew, you know, with all of the buildings that was out there, and that we demolished, somewhere on that -- on the flight -- on the flight side of the things, somewhere there was some buildings we demolished that we could have used for this facility.

>> I don't think the problem was that we didn't have a building we could have used. The problem really arose about two months ago when the post office pulled out of the belly port deal and they came to us and said, we don't have enough property leased to sell our bonds and you all are spending over $2 million renovating buildings, why don't you rent some of ours, we can get the facility built.

>>Lewis: in essence we are bailing them out. We are working with them to both of our advantages, it's true they couldn't go forward, but if they hadn't gone forward we would have had a big problem.

>>Garza: yes we would have. There are two things to consider, also. Is that in the event of an expansion, which we think will happen sooner than 2012, you would have to still find a permanent solution to the issue of how are we going to handle that maintenance and operation section. The recommendation we brought to the Council was to enter into that contract with the belly freight because that is a permanent solution and we think that the settlement even with the settlement consideration of the settlement it's still a financially better position for us to be in as well as operational. That's why we are recommending this to the Council Members.

>>Lewis: my question still remains, Mr. City Manager, that we knew in the beginning that we was going to have to house this group someplace.

>>Garza: yes, sir.

>>Lewis: I mean right along with the terminal, we knew that we was going to have to have a facility. We wait to this point to determine that we are going to house them in a temporary facility. It's bad planning. We knew when we said that we was going to move out there that these people was going to have to have a permanent facility.

>>Garza: I understand. I think that you are making a good point. We understand that. In hindsight, looking back to two years ago, we might have done something different. But we are where we are. And this is the recommendation we have.

>> If we knew two years ago the belly freight couldn't be built without somebody leasing space, we could have built something.

>> As chuck said a minute ago, their numbers would have worked had the post office stayed in the loop. They decided to do something different. That belly freight facility is important for us as we go toward opening day on the first. We scrambled, we think it's a good decision for us to have made financially.

>>Lewis: knowing what I know about the airport operation, I think if that belly freight had been that important, it would have been in the planning, in the master planning a lot earlier than it was. Because, you know, we knew going in that -- that we needed some type of facility. But we waited until, you know, last year when they -- when we gave them authorization to sell the bonds. It was just last year that we did that. You know? we have known that we was going to be moving out there, what, three years ago. So it -- when you look at it from people that have knowledge of the operation, it just seems to me that -- because they lost the thing with the airport, with the post office, now we go in and bail them out and it costs us more money to bail them out than we would have spent and we still basing our projection on something that may be rather than -- even though -- even if -- if belly freight something happened, we still are going to have to house these people. That's my question. So it is just one of those things when I had calls from some people and said, you know, all you are doing it bailing these people out because they -- they didn't make a good business decision. Or their business decision went bad. You know? and somebody is going to make some money on this belly freight thing other than the airport. That's my point.

>> Understand, Council Members, member, that we had a plan, we had two buildings to renovate what's what we were going to do. When the post office pulled out, we had to figure out a way to get that building built and at the same time not spend unnecessary money for the airport. The solution was save the two million plus on the two buildings, don't do them, rent from belly port, they can now build their building, it works.

>>Lewis: well, yeah. Have the building built, save the people that are making money with the belly freight that's what it is. Because somebody out there is going to make some money on this belly freight building. Had we moved in there or did a lease with them, they would have made less. You know? that's -- that's the thing that appears to the people that know what the operation is, with this airplane, it says to them. That we are bailing them out.

>> The problem is, Council Member, it's not that they would have made less. They wouldn't have built the building.

>>Lewis: well, if those don't build it, we build it, they don't make anything.

>>Garza: we wouldn't have had enough time at that point to have built the building. That's where we were. We went down a road thinking things could happen, they didn't pan out, we had to scramble. We still think, even given those unique circumstances that this is not a bad financial decision for us, from an aviation standpoint, an expansion standpoint that might happen sooner than 2012. In hindsight could there have been better planning? yes. In hindsight would we have made a better decision? perhaps. We are where we are. This 600 million plus project quite frapgly have happened with very few of these kind of issues, even this one is not a major one.

>>Lewis: well not in relation to $650 million or so. But it's still something that, you know, most people look at it and just, you know, they don't understand the operation. But we -- you know, people that understand the operation at the aviation department know that all this is is a bailout of the people that is doing the belly freight. That's all it is. It's simple when you add another $150,000 to the lease, if they was so -- if they was so -- if they was in such a need, you know, I don't know what the square footage with the lease per square footage is on this, whether it's prevailing rate or not. But if they needed us that barked we could have got it better. [One moment please] I'm just saying when you add this other $150,000 to it, it raises the rent amount.

>> Councilmember, I think your point is well taken. We need to get I some information with respect to that. We don't that today, but we'll be happy to provide that to you.

>>Lewis: I would like to see it because when I add add it all together,, I mean, whether you're paying to to cancel a contract or not, you still are adding it -- it's the same money. It's for the same cause so that the place can be leased. That's all I have, Mayor pro tem.

>>Goodman: well, do we want -- or can we delay this? do you want more information before you actually make a vote on it?

>>Lewis: I would like to have the information as to what we -- what we're paying -- what this $150 added to this would cost -- is costing us per square foot to for the rental and lease of this facility.

>> If the Council would like that analysis done, we can do that. I don't know that this is -- we could wait until a week, Council Members, Mayor Pro Tem?

>>Mayor Watson: I think we're not having a meeting next week.

>> Yes, we are. It's the following week that we're not. We can have it back on the 11th and have a report to the Council and Council Member Lewis.

>>Goodman: so there are no ramifications if we do that.

>> I think we've negotiated a settlement to something we're recommending because they've done some work for us. So I don't know that our recommendation is going to change, but he'd like the whole package in when the cost translates to.

>>Goodman: it would be good to go through the steps of how we arrived at the settlement, I'm sure.

>> Sure.

>> Do you want to do that now or wait until next week?

>>Goodman: let's do that next week.

>> We can do it all next week.

>>Goodman: is that okay? do you want to make a motion?

>>Spelman: we need a formal motion on that? move to postpone for one week.

>>Goodman: okay. All those in favor, please say aye.

>> Aye.

>>Goodman: okay. Bill is back now. We passed number 20 because you were temporarily off the dias, but before we do that, let me say I total le messed up on number 37 when we put it back on consent. I had forgotten that three people had signed up to speak in favor of. So when it went back on consent, I forgot about them. That was michael ray in favor, but to speak only if opposition present. Billy carter, the same. And jerry converse the same. So I should have acknowledged them. Okay. Item number 20 was pulled by Council Member Spelman.

>>Spelman: thank you, Mayor Pro Tem. This is a situation where services which have been provided by seton hospital would be provided by us. And in order to figure out how much it's going to cost us to provide those services, it's necessary for us to have some information as to how many of those services are going to be provided. Until recently that information has been held propriety by seton health services. They haven't wanted to provide that information to us. In fact, for this particular item, they have been willing to provide us with the information. I'd like to compliment them for actually being willing to be flexible with respect to information that they consider to be proprietary. And I look forward to continuing that flexibility in the future. I move approval of item 20. Slush second.

>>Goodman: there's a motion and a skd. Further comments? all in favor.

>> Aye.

>>Goodman: that passes with the Mayor temporarily absent. And Gus needs to --.

>>Lewis: are you voting, Council Member, on item 20.

>>Garcia: yes. What did we do on 35?

>>Lewis: we didn't get to 35.

>>Goodman: that's where we're going right now. Next item was pulled by Council Member Lewis, number 35.

>>Lewis: yeah. On item number 35, I got -- I did get an answer. The fact that we're doing 197 thousand dollars with the contingent si on year one on 17 nine and no contingency on year twoe, it raised some two, it raised some question in my mind of what would we know in year two that we don't know now as far as the amount of asphalt coating we're going to need. But they did attempt to answer the question, so I move approval of item 35.

>>Slusher: second.

>>Goodman: there's a motion and a skd. Further comments second. Further comments? all in favor.

>> Aye.

>>Goodman: okay. Item number 53. Councilmember Slusher?

>>Slusher: thank you, Mayor Pro Tem. Could you tell us how we came to bear this extra expense?

>> yes, sir, Council Member. This particular change order is for a -- actually a negotiated settlement of a claim that the contractor has given to us. Actually the claim was almost twice as much as what we're talking about here. And it's due to flooded conditions that occurred while they were constructing the out fall line for the walnut creek wastewater treatment plant. And these flooded conditions were in excess of what is normal. This was back in 1997. The construction was occurring right alongside walnut creek right as it enters into the Colorado river. And a number of times the actual creek came up and flooded the particular excavation. Other times the releases from the upstream lakes through the dams caused the Colorado river to rise and even though we had -- the contractor had several hours' notice in several of those cases, it was unknown how much the water would rise. I talked with the project engineer. They actually talked to lcra and tried to find out what the elevation would be, but they did not know what the actual downstream elevation would be at that particular location at those particular times. What happened was so much that -- it wasn't so much that equipment was damaged as it was that the work that they had done in terms of the excavation, in terms of the coffer dams were flooded. They had to be cleaned out and they had to start that process over again for that particular location.

>>Slusher: okay. Let me make sure I understand what you just said. It was more a matter of having to redo work than having to pay for equipment that was damaged by flood.

>> That's the majority of it. There was some equipment at night that they had left on site that did get some damage and they had to get cleaned out, but the majority of this is -- and I have some pictures here if you would like to see them where the coffer dam and some of the -- some of the excavation that had occurred was flooded out. Both at the Colorado river as well as at the walnut creek crossing.

>>Slusher: and the City was under order from tnrcc to get this done post haste; is that correct?

>> that's correct. As a result of a tnrcc order that was the result of a lawsuit going back really to the mid 80's, late '80s, when we had the out fall in the walnut creek channel and we were going to get our permit renewal back in the mid 80's, there was a landowner downstream that basically on opposed the permit. As part of getting the permit for the walnut creek plant, the settlement was that there would be a diversion built. And the -- which ended up being this out fall channel eventually. We needed to build the out fall channel for purposes of the plant as well as to get the flow out of the creek so that it would settle this downstream landowner's complaint that his land was being eaten away, so to speak, because of the effluent washing through there, even though we didn't think that was the case. So in order to get the permit, which was very critical for us to continue to operate the plant there, the negotiated settlement was that this pipeline would be put in. It was put into the tnrcc order and a deadline was put in there. That deadline is one of the reasons we were trying to continue to push the contractor to stay on the job as best possible so he would not move off and come back on at a later date, not knowing whether or not the rains would continue, whether or not the creek would continue to come up or down. In this case there were a number of times where he had difficulty with that water.

>>Slusher: okay. Would an earlier warning from the lcra have helped us avoid this?

>> I really don't think so. And I can get the project engineer who dealt with them to discuss that. It was not just the Colorado river backing up, even though that was some of the situations. It was also walnut creek going above flood stage, so to speak, to where it went beyond what they had built in place to divert the creek around. And this happened, I want to say, -- 10 times in the creek. And then there were several times when the actual river came back up. The release from the dams sometimes is a day ahead of time, sometimes it's just a few hours ahead of time, but the difficulty was knowing how much is it going to come up and what impact is that going to have on this particular construction site.

>>Slusher: but we were in a situation where we knew it was going to come up, we just didn't know when?

>> in those cases where we knew the water was going to be released, we knew it was going to come up and they could get their equipment out of there, but it did not satisfy or it is not solve the problem with the cof if er dams and the work they had already done. So that was a big chunk, when all the mud and rain came back in and basically destroyed the work that they had done.

>>Slusher: okay. That's all my questions.

>>Lewis: I have a question. Let me ask you, how many -- over what periods did these 10 rises of walnut creek occur?

>> let me get my project engineer, haney michelle, can you answer that?

>> some of the flooding would occur overnight, some of it would occur within maybe three or four hours of hard rain.

>>Lewis: but what span --.

>> From January until august of 1997.

>>Lewis: January to august then. Well, that's eight months and we have 10 times that it -- I can understand to some degree with the river, with the river -- with the release of the water at the river because normally the dams would be a protected barrier, but these people that's doing the contract, I mean, don't they have some insurance or something that -- because of the weather conditions? I mean, surely if you're going to be on a -- you would have some idea of what the weather is going to be like from week to week or month to month. That's my question.

>> Well, the amount of rain we got and the flooding is very abnormal and the contract allows for a certain amount of rain days. What we got was three times as much. And the frequency of those flash floods were a lot higher than what was experienced along the creek, so it was very, very hard to anticipate any of that stuff happening. It's just above the normal.

>>Lewis: all right. Well, thank you.

>>Spelman: Mayor Pro Tem. Let me put just an extra point on Council Member Lewis's question. When we have a contract, we bear the risks for acts of God like heavy rain days and flash flooding. Is this a policy on our part or a one time deal on this contract?

>> when we asked the contractor to stay on board, yes, we do under contract law, we are responsible for that. If we have asked him -- he wanted to really did he mobilize and wanted to leave the job site -- he had another job in san antonio, wanted to come back in 120 days and hopefully the rain would have subsided. We would have not met our tnrcc permit and we would have been late. So we didn't know when it was going to go away, so we were hoping it would go away fast and asked him to stay on board and just stick with us to be able to meet the tnrcc deadline.

>>Spelman: did the contractor actually ask to be able to take out for 120 days to go to san antonio?

>> yes. We asked to demobilize and then mobilize and he would have charged us anyway for demobilizing and mobilizing.

>>Spelman: and we denied his request for the reasons you mentioned a moment ago?

>> yes, sir.

>>Spelman: so it's only appropriate that we should bear the risk in that situation because we were asking him to do something that was against his contract.

>> Yes, sir.

>>Spelman: okay.

>>Goodman: if there are no further questions, is there a motion?

>>Spelman: move approval.

>>Slusher: second.

>>Goodman: there's a motion and a second. Further discussion? all in favor?

>> aye.

>>Goodman: that passes instancely with the Mayor temporarily absent. Which takes us to our next item, which is a time certain, and we're not quite at that time. The 3:30 item of the Austin housing finance corporation, we'll have to wait for that 10 minutes. So we can take a -- well, nine. Nine minute break.

>>Slusher: second.

>>Lewis: did we do -- we did 53, didn't we?

>>Goodman: I believe the Mayor will be with us shortly, but in Council Members in chambers, why don't we go ahead and started for a time certain item number 57. We need to get one more Council Member. Okay. Then we'll recess the City Council meeting and convene the board meeting of the Austin housing finance corporation. And we have Paul hilgers.

>> Yes. Madam board member, I guess, the staff is bringing back for board consideration today a resolution authorizing the negotiation, execution of a deferred payment forgive able loan to push up foundation in the amount not to exceed 625,000 dollars for the acquisition of a 50 unit transitional housing facility for homeless men located at 1711 east Cesar Chavez street. That facility actually has about 26 rooms that will house house -- it will have 56 beds in it. It's a 50 bed facility, not a 50 unit facility. It will have a total of 50 beds. Push up foundation responded to request for proposal for both the chchlt choto program and the housing implementation program and one at competitive bid through our process and I understand it was a meeting last night where some of the issues in the neighborhood was addressed and there are folks here to speak to that and I'm here to answer any questions you might have.

>>Goodman: okay. Are there questions. Councilmember Garcia?

>>Garcia: thank you, Mayor pro tem. This question might be better for the executive director of the push up foundation.

>> Ben it here.

>>Garcia: I'm going to ask it of you first and then I'm going to ask him. From what I understand the concerns of the neighborhood, it has to do with what kind of effects this kind of facility has on the neighborhood. As I understand it, this particular facility for several years housed a similar program, correct?

>> yes, sir. It was a halfway house for parole ees for 23 years.

>>Garcia: is this also a halfway house for parolees, the way the push up foundation?

>> no, sir, it's not. It would be a transitional facility for people who have been determined by push up to be trying to get their lives in order. And to try to stabilize their life so that they could then move on and become part of the mainstream of society. So they will be monitored, provided with additional supportive services and have a structured environment to be in, so we consider it a vital service that -- that they provide.

>>Garcia: where do they get their referrals from?

>> yes. I would like for them to talk about exactly where they're planning to get the referrals.

>>Garcia: did anybody else apply for these funds when you sent out the notice of fund availability?

>> yes, sir. Guadalupe neighborhood corporation applied. There were essentially five proposals that were received in response to this. Guadalupe neighborhood development corporation received some funding also last week. The other -- and that was for $100,000 to acquire some property, if you recall.

>>Garcia: which one.

>> Guadalupe neighborhood corporation. And under the hip program, there was another project from thomas rit en house that was not recommended for funding. It was not recommended for funding. Under the chota, the black land community development corporation --.

>>Garcia: I got that.

>> Great. Thank you.

>>Garcia: from the point of view of oversight by the City, and this again may not be under your direction. It may be under health and human services. One of the concerns -- one of the areas that has, you know, concerned the neighborhood for a long time has been the operation of the soup kitchen.

>> Yes, sir.

>>Garcia: and the City has been basically unable to enforce anything because we can't change the zoning. It's grandfathered grandfathered. And the police department cannot do anything with the people that are just standing there because that's not something -- unless they're, you know, loitering or in some way, shape or form violating some kind of law, they can't do anything. And up until now they haven't been able to do anything about all the sillover effects of the operation of -- spillover effects of the operation of the soup kitchen. And I say spillover from the operation itself. And how that spillover has affected the quality of life in that neighborhood. Which department of the City would be able to enforce that particular aspect of this operation, if there was to be -- you know, when the house was there, I don't remember ever having one complaint from the neighborhood about any spillover. I mean, no loitering in the neighborhood.

>> Well, the best answer I would give to that, one is that we would be constantly available to listen to any complaints of the neighborhood. Obviously this creates valid concerns in any neighborhood where this would be going and they would want to know and I would want to know any facility that was creating a situation. Although I would say that it would also be a partnership between the police department, the health and human services department and my department as well as I would think with the participation of the east Cesar Chavez street organizations and neighborhood associations and in their planning process how this fits into that plan and any organizations in communities around it.

>>Garcia: okay. Thank you very much, Mr. Hilgers.

>>Lewis: I have a question.

>>Goodman: okay. Real quick before we go on, we need a more formal convention of the Austin housing finance corporation since Council Member Garcia was in the room but not on the dias. Can we have a formal motion to convene?

>>Lewis: so move.

>>Spelman: second.

>>Goodman: all in favor?

>> aye.

>>Goodman: thank you. Councilmember Lewis?

>>Lewis: thank you, ma'am dam president, vice-president.

>>Goodman: or whatever. Lewis it says here it's a men's --.

>>Lewis: it says here it's a men's transitional housing program. As I understand it, they operate a transitional housing for women at second street and chalmers; is that correct?

>> that's correct.

>>Lewis: has anyone pulled up police reports or any -- data on that?

>> no, sir, I have not.

>>Lewis: has there been any complaints from the neighborhoods or --.

>> Not to my knowledge, but I could sure check that out for you, sir.

>> And ben, I'm sure would know that. Ben lives at the facility that we're talking about here today.

>>Lewis: thank you.

>> Councilmember Lewis, there was no report from the police. And we have been in that particular location for more than two years now.

>>Lewis: all right. I'm just trying to get a feel on the problem. I would hope that it don't wind up like the soup kitchen where it's not the soup kitchen that caused the problem, but it's what happened after they leave the soup kitchen is where the problem arises because the people that's running the soup kitchen don't appear to be able to control the people that they are serving or the environment that they are creating by performing this service, so that's the point that I was trying to make. That if you're able to control the environment that you're creating, then there's a possibility that things like -- that happens at the soup kitchen don't happen, you know. So that's the reason I asked the question about the reports from the police department or complaints from the neighborhoods. That's the only question I had.

>>Goodman: if there are no more questions then, we have 30 speakers signed up. Okay. Ready? the first speaker is -- the first card is Richard Troxell, but he was not going to be able to be here. Let me call steven meeks. Not here. Christie pate? I have to read them in the number that they signed up. Michelle -- I'm not sure, ligas? these folks are not here. I should say they are -- steven meeks signed up for. Christie pate for. Michelle ligas for. Curt becker? is in favor. Kenneth phillips? it may not take as long as I had envisioned. John stars? he's in favor. Denise matthews. And after her -- is ter rans war ton here. And you will be the next speaker. You can come to the podium so you can be ready.

>> My name is denise matthews. I just want to tell you a little bit of -- I'm one of the residents at the push up foundation, housing for the women and the chirp. Well, -- children. I was screened, first of all, and I felt that I was honored to be able to be accepted in this. This place to me is a caring, loving, a very structured place. I -- the people are very warm hearted and they're teaching me more or less how to build up my esteem and have confidence in order to deal with life on life's terms now. I have just recently had major surgery and they are very supportive behind it because I'm unable to do a lot of things now. I had went to go -- I had a job, but due to my illness, you know, I have a leave of absence now, but I would -- they've taught me that I can as well go back to school and learn something else, you know. I have that confidence now to where I -- I feel like I have the ability to further my education. Push up is for me a very, very wonderful place. It really helps me to deal with myself, my -- my being. They're very patient with me and that's something I've never been taught, you know. It was always someone, you know, just pushing me to the side or whatever. And they allow me to make the choices of my -- of what's going on and if it's a bad choice, I correct myself and, you know, go on with it. But they're very supportive. They give -- they give us referrals on where to go, you know, to go look for places for jobs and things, set us up for housing authority, you know, and if we're eligible or whatever. As far as I'm concerned, I am for push up foundation because they are -- they are very good team of people and they're very dedicate to what they're doing. That's all I've got.

>>Goodman: okay. Thank you. Mr. Wharton?

>> hi. My name is terrance wharton and I'm a client at push up foundation in the men's program. And I'm here in support because I was at the meeting at the neighborhood meeting last night and what I came -- what I got out of there, there was a lot of fear from the people that live in the neighborhood. And I just want to shed some light on what kind of guys will be staying there. The guys there, myself included, we are drug-free and alcohol free. I have been drug-free and alcohol free, it will be a year coming this may 2nd. Okay. We are constantly monitored there on a daily basis. We monitor one another and we also are monitored by the staff. The people that live in the naind, you have nothing to fear from us -- in the neighborhood. You have nothing to fear from us because we will be an assess not, not a liability. There's a lot of things going on in that neighborhood right now that me myself sees that's going on that I can be helpful in eliminating because a lot of the activities that's going on in the neighborhood, such as drug activity and people hanging out on the corners, drinking alcohol, I can relate to that because I was one of those people. So I can go and talk to those people that are out there because, as a matter of fact, on Monday night after we had -- we had the meeting Tuesday night and I was leaving, I was stand he at the bus stop and I was propositioned, okay? and the guy that propositioned me, I guarantee you that he will not be back in the neighborhood prop titioning anybody else. These are the kind -- propositioning anybody else. These are the kind of things positive things that we bring to the naind. Like I se, I will be clean a -- neighborhood. Like I said, I will be clean a year almost in the next three months. In the current time I've gotten my kids back, I've established a relationship with my son that I hasn't seen since 1988. I think that is a positive thing. I'm currently trying to get licensed to start my own business, okay? I consider that to be a very positive thing. So you have nothing to fear from us. All we ask is that you give us the opportunity, you know. I had a disease, a disease that I'm overcoming with, but it's going to take some time. And that's pretty much all I have to say. Just give us a chance. Thank you.

>>Spelman: Mayor Pro Tem? I have a question. This is probably morbid core yosty on my part, but I've got to know. How is it that you can guarantee that this fellow won't be propositioning any further? [laughter].

>>Goodman: we may not want to go there.

>>Lewis: he just don't understand.

>> Well, the comment, what he asked me and the response that I gave him, I think I kind of scared him off.

>>Spelman: you didn't use any force on this fellow?

>> no, no. One addict understands another addict, you know what I mean? and it's a certain terminology that you can use on the street to get your point across without using any violence, and I don't think this guy will be back.

>>Spelman: I applaud you for your discretion. Thank you. Good.

>>Goodman: let me call cindy Martinez. And-her is audra -- and after her is audra Mills.

>> Hi. I'm one of the counselors there. I'm the outpatient counselor. And one of the things I want to share is that my grandmother lives right there on that corner. My grandfather built three homes. Because there are other agencies there are there, there's recovery and recovery is so important. There could still be that problem, but because people have cared enough to put programs, to put the bus, to put those things we need because you know, transportation is a problem. You have to take the bus, but they don't have to take the bus clear across town. It's there for them in their community and that's so important. Appeared what I'm looking at right now is what happened to that valley of love your neighborhood and be your brother's keeper. That's lost somewhere and that is so important. We go into those streets, we're working with the people. They want the family component. That's what's suffering right now, the family. We're not looking to bring anybody in, whoever wants to lay out. This is something that's going to help them better themselves. Look at another way of living. I work for youth for many years. Now I'm working with adults. There's a whole new thing I'm looking at, but it works. We can't be labeling and stereo typing. It has to be where they can be affordable for them and adapt able for them and that the family can stay together. And that's all I really want to say because it is important to me because it is my family and I do live there and my father was raised with half the people in that neighborhood and I see that there is an importance because recovery is important in our community today. And that value system has to be made by people that see that and want that in mir lives. Thank you.

>>Garcia: let me ask a quick question. Cindy, I appreciate you coming, first of all. And good to see you back. I haven't seen you back since the old days. The concern that the communities have expressed has to do with what happens around the area. In other words, how do we control what happens, you know, around an establishment of this type. And they're concerned -- they have something that they can refer to by looking at the soup kitchen. What assurances or what procedures can be put in place to make sure that we don't have that kind of spillover into the neighborhoods, that we in no way, shape or form affect the neighborhood adversely?

>> one of the things is the structure. We're monitoring at all times. I see lots of time there's women out there and I'll get the women and say let's talk to this lady on the corner. Let's invite her to the program. Let mer know we're here for them. There's a curfew. They have to be in the facility at a certain time. There's know hanging out, just sitting outside, just sitting talking about things. They need to be in the building. If they need to talk, there's an outside, a backyard. It's very, very monitored. We ua them, we screen them. We check their criminal background. We check where they're coming from. We check to see do they really want to do this. Is is this someplace you want to come and get a couple of hours of sleep and get ooet and go on. That's not what we are. We're here to help you better yourself. We're here to help you reach those goals so you can better -- then come back and work for us. May of them come back and work in our facility r. Facility. That's what it's all about. You can go back to college, get your g.e.d.. Give back. That's what I'm saying. What happened to that love your neighbor? that's what it's all about. Where's that value? do you want to put them somewhere else? people, it's there. It's not going to go hide anywhere. And it's been there for a long time. That area has had problems for many, many years.

>>Garcia: I don't know if I heard you correctly. You said you ua'd them.

>> Yes. We do an urine analysis. We do it on a weekly, even daily. As counselors, if we feel this person has been having problems, they don't look like they're keeping up with their schedule, maybe there's times we've had to check a little more, then we'll go back and do a ua and see if they're clean. They are monitored. These people are constantly monitored. They're constantly being watched and there's structure and discipline. They have to be accountable for everything they do. Everything has to be accountable for.

>>Garcia: last question has to do with the comparison between this establishment and the dismus house. Are you familiar with dismus?

>> a little bit. I know it's a halfway house. We're more of transitional housing. They can speak more on that part of it.

>>Garcia: let me ask, when you say transitional, how long a period does the average resident stay there before they move to another?

>> I think they have up to a year until they can get themselves established. I know with the women's, they can have 30 days, they can ask for another 30 days. We want to make sure they have an account. They have to make sure the resources are stabilizesed. And I'm sure that's how it's going to be in the men's program also.

>>Mayor Watson: audra Mills?

>> good evening Mayor and Council. I just kind of want to give you a brief overview about the men's transitional housing facility, maybe answer some of your questions that you might have. The eligibility criteria for this program -- let me pass some fliers. I don't know if you have this or not. They have to be homeless, they have to be adult male, they have to be clean and sober. We are not a residential substance abuse treatment facility. We do not take people in our program that are actively under the influence of drugs or alcohol or actively in current use. So they have to -- when they come to our facility, they have to be clean and sober. We expect for them to obtain employment and to maintain employment and they have to be willing to abide by our rules. And if you've ever come to any of our facilities, you will see that we have a long list of rules posted on our walls and given to them which they have to sign off on prior to being admitted to -- into our program. Now, some of these rules are -- consist of what you would normally see in any type of program, such as this, no drugs, no alcohol, no drug and alcohol pair in a nail I can't, no weapons, no stealing, no destruction of property. But we have several other rules. Those are the primary rules that will immediately get you discharged from this program. We call those card national rules. Then what we have is -- card nal rules. Then we have the house cools. These are the things that you're talking about that they be discharged from the program as well. Loitering is something that we at push up foundation do not like. And if you ever come to any of our facilities, I don't care what time of the day, 24 hours a day, seven days a week, you will never see clients just out there just hanging out. We do not permit that at all. They must be in our facility because we have appropriate space to accommodate all of our people. We have, you know, break areas and tv areas and play room areas for the children, so we have many areas where they can hang out inside the facility. With we don't like that and we don't allow that. We provide intensive case management services. Our goal is not for them to stay homeless. Yes, they come to us homeless, but our goal is self-sufficency, our goal is for them to complete the program and be able to go into their own apartment, go into the housing authority, get into some home ownership programs. So we're a big advocate of a continuum of care services. And we work with several other agencies. If you look in our packet, you will see several other agencies that we have worked with in the past to provide services. [Buzzer].

>>Mayor Watson: thank you very much. Ben?

>> Mayor Watson, Council Members, I think members of push up foundation and I have explained to you what we stand for and what we are, but let me tell you that neighborhoods are my friend. They are sitting down here -- if I'm lying, I want them to tell the Council that ben is lying. In this neighborhood we're talking about, I live there right now. You know, when we come to the naind, I live there six months. -- Neighborhood. I live there six months. Some down here are my neighbors, the drug dealers and we fought with them, we called the police department, we walked to clean the place up. I warned them if -- if I'm lying, I want them to tell the Council that I'm lying. Right now as I'm talking to you, I live in the neighborhood because I thrust the neighborhood. I believe in the neighborhood. I brought the assistant chief of police to the meeting they're talking about before I got in the position. And we believe in the neighborhood because we support the Cesar Chavez neighborhood planning, which I am not regretting. But the neighborhood know very well that I'm their friend. They know what I stand for. They know I believe in the community, I believe in working with people and that's what we stand for. So I'm saying, Council, you know, that we don't want to get into the middle of misunderstanding that is going on in our neighborhood. I think we have a lot to offer the neighborhood. Right now I'm working with dozen of neighborhoods. We're working with south Congress coalition trying to help them keep prostitutes off the street and we're working with a lot of agencies. I think that the we will be good help to the neighborhood and we'll love the neighborhood. Even though we don't like to go -- I don't want to go to another meeting, but at the same time, I still love my neighborhood very much and I thank you all, you know, but I will continue to work with every one of you. But give me the opportunity to keep on serving this great mission. I'm here to say that I'm delighted to look at families that we have restored from foster homes, prostitute coming off the street and working and paying taxes. I think we need to invest in making people come back to life again. Thank you.

>>Garcia: Mayor? ben, I already had cindy answer some of the questions that I was going to ask you, but while you're here and the neighbors are here, it would be appropriate, I think, to go over in summary form the processes that you use to ensure that the neighborhoods are not adversely affected by the operation of the pushup foundation at this location.

>> Councilmember, Gus Garcia, I think I will say that I let our record speaks for itself. I have been -- we have been at 1700 east second street for more than two years. There has not been one complaint from the neighborhood, neither from the police department. The meeting that we attended yesterday, nobody ever raised one issue about push up. We have a structured program. Our residents work. The goal of our program is self-sufficency. There is a big -- there is a big difference between dependency and self-sufficency. That is what we stand for. If you are coming to push up for a handout, there is no place for you. We fight the thinking of welfare thinking. That's what our program fights. You should not sit down and wait for people to pay for your life. You have many things in you that you can use to make money for yourself, that you can work, you can go to school, you can do many things and it shows in our program. And the same thing -- the men's program is more structured than the women. Let me share the difference. Women, when they come into the program, they don't have to work immediately because of the kids. But in the men's program, you've got to have a job to talk to me. You've got to have a job or assure me that you you are doing something. Because we donlt encourage anybody laying around. -- Don't encourage anybody laying around. Right now we have been there for more than one month and all of them work. We have very few of them here. So we're we run a very, very structured program and I believe that is why the City of Austin and the City Council have confidence in our program.

>>Mayor Watson: thank you. Michael Martin?

>> good afternoon everybody. My name is michael Martin and I'm a recovering addict. I'm not from this area. I'm from amarillo and I will give you a little bit of information about the situation. I have spent the last six months in a treatment center and been given an opportunity by ben to come to the push up foundation, and it's exactly what he says it is, a transitional place. I might add that my wife and my daughter are clients of the women's facility. And I don't believe that we're asking for any handouts. Without being a burden to our folks again and trying to do some positive things, I think this is real important. I don't believe that we're a burden to the neighborhood. We just want an opportunity to bitter ourselves. And -- better ourselves. And in reference to your -- about the soup kitchen and parolees, I'm not a parole lee. And the soup kitchen, they do have guidelines and we have to live by those guidelines, the ua's and such as that. And I just -- there's nothing bad that I could say about the program and I'm very happy that they've given me the opportunity to be there. Thank you.

>>Mayor Watson: linda dell toro, followed by ms. Castaneda. Do you wish to speak or be shown in opposition? [inaudible].

>>Mayor Watson: I apologize. I'm sorry. What did you say? [inaudible]. Ms. Castaneda?

>> I'm coming.

>>Mayor Watson: rick luna, you will get to speak next, appropriately, I hope.

>> Thank you for allowinging us to speak today. First of all, we are each other's brother's keepers. However, unfortunately in this neighborhood, we're keeping a whole lot of brothers and sisters. And the fact that we've got the method doen clinics, the fact that we've got all the other social service agencies, it provides this neighborhood with a lot of services. However, it en kum bers us with more programs and more programs and more programs that bring more people to our neighborhood on a daily basis, day and night that require services. And that's good to some extent except that it brings other people that may have the same needs, but are not on the way gone. They are not able to survive in the neighborhood without going back to their habits. And I know this. When I came up here in november to talk to you about the police department, I brought the issue of the fact that a home lts man walked into my house. It was late summer, -- it was still in september. I opened the front door and left it latched after my daughter went to work down the street and she -- and so the door was latched. This man just walked into my house and was walking inside the small kitchen area that I had. And I thought maybe it was my son and it wasn't my son. It was a tall, six-foot ang low homeless person that thought he was in his friend's house. Police chief knows about it. We've talked about these issues much. But more importantly, you've got to understand that we're overburdened with so many programs and we have to continually absorb those issues. And that's where this brother is back -- our backs are tired and we need some relief. What we would rather do is have programs that are more helpful for the entire community and not just for a segment of the community because the brother's keepers, they also live in west Austin and south Austin and north Austin. Not just on east third street and east second street and east Cesar Chavez. Y'all live everywhere else. This is your burden too. So I'm asking you to please reconsider this, to please give us more time. Maybe they can come up with another plan. Maybe a child chair center, which necessity desperately need, and I know they need that too. Perhaps another alternative might be dealing with families, units of families. I don't know. I'd rather the child care center because that's -- that's a place where everybody in the community can benefit and not just one segment. And that little granddaughter that I have, I venture to say that this little girl is going to grow up seeing all of the things that happen in my neighborhood and she's going to keep paying attention to what happens because she listens to grandma real well except when she talks a lot, but the point is she may be one day a victim of a man like the man that walked in my house. [Buzzer]. Thank you. [Inaudible].

>> Yes, sir. I was there for about an hour. I had to leave for the co-op radio station. [Inaudible].

>> Yes.

>>Slusher: thank you.

>> Yes. I was on the school board for four years.

>>Slusher: right. And I'm wondering, I have a memo from the director of the push up foundation. He didn't describe these things in his talk. And I don't know if he just didn't want it brought up, but I think we need a little public discussion of this. For instance, that clients -- it says here that people in the crowd called the clients trophyes scum and trash. Did you see that kind of thing go on?

>> no, sir, I di not. I left about 7:30 or so. I did not hear or see in any of that happen.

>>.

>>Slusher: I sigh some folks in the crowd shaking their heads yes.

>> Those are the folks that come with the push up foundation. I wasn't there when that happened. [Inaudible].

>>Slusher: so you weren't there at the time?

>> no, I was not. No.

>>Slusher: okay.

>> That would not be any terminology I would ever use because having been a public servant, I tried to be as effective as possible in making certain that people get heard.

>>Slusher: so you wouldn't be in favor of that sort of treatment of anyone?

>> no oh, absolutely not.

>>Slusher: it also says hear that the members of the push up foundation put out informational fliers on the table and that they were tossed outside.

>> I'm not aware of that. I was sitting next to --.

>>Slusher: I see a lot of heads nodding.

>>.

>> That may have happened. I didn't see anything like that happen. I was sitting next to the director of the baptist community center and I did not see that.

>>Slusher: did you see the member of the City staff that tried to explain the City staff's position get shouted down?

>> what I did see was a miscommunication issue. The understanding I had, and it was thoroughly explained at the last City Council and addressed to the Mayor, I believe,, and that was that the concilio was calling this meeting. And I do recall that Mr. White walked in and he attempted to start the meeting while Mr. Donnelly was sit siting there tying to wait for everybody to take their places and sit down. And Mr. Donnelly, as you know, has a loud voice, but he did not yell at him. I saw this as Mr. Donnelly speaking in his normal tone of voice, which is relatively loud, but I didn't see him get shouted down. That's quite -- quite different than using his normal voice. And I think you know how Mr. Donnelly speaks.

>>Slusher: well, I'll let you characterize that. I don't want to get into that. And what about Mr. Nofzinger, a former Council Member who spoke in favor of the push up foundation?

>> not there when he spoke, you about but I spoke to him briefly before and he said he was in favor of it.

>>Mayor Watson: Mr. Luna, followed by Mr. Contera.

>> I live on east third and chalmers and I do also police the area about drugs and alcohol. We do have a lot of tran ients coming in trying to buy stuff and sell stuff. It was funny to call the City employee and ask him to -- he weent there, so I left a message and didn't know that the child was young, but that when he called me back and said that I scared her, you know. And I'm here thinking, I'm real sorry about that, but I have three daughters. I have two right now at home living with me. And they're not going to be scared. They're going to be terrified trying to go to the store and buy ice cream, candy. I don't even let them go to the store right now because of the trouble that we have there on east first street and chal mers. We have people selling drugs. We have two places where they sell beer. We're trying to establish a nice living environment in East Austin, but it seems that y'all keep on bringing stuff that we -- you know, we don't need. We already have victory ministries, which I feel that they're doing a very outstanding job without cbg money. You know, and we're these people are really concerned about caring for other people. I don't think they should use our cbg money because that money is to develop property -- to make it look beautiful. And we're just -- we're just giving this money to somebody that -- what's going to happen is if something happens, it hurts my child or some other child there and who's going to be the blame for it? is it scare tactics? no. I have a right there. I've lived there all my life. I'm just real tired of y'all just kind of like dumping the stuff on us, you know. Maybe it needs to be put more into downtown. Salvation army is there. People use salvation army. I'm not -- I'm not really upset at the women because I feel that women do need a chance. I feel that with children they do need a chance, but I believe that men are supposed to be men enough to take care of themselves. They don't need a program where you get 50 men in a place and I guarantee you you are going to have trouble. And it might not be right now. And I've seen them right now hanging around, about five or six of them at the bus stop and they hang around with other peep and get to meet the other tran sients there. And, you know, we're losing. We're not yaining. I'm against it and -- gaining. I'm against it. I represent ben and I respect -- respect ben and I respect the push up foundation. But we don't need more men in East Austin. I'm against it.

>>Mayor Watson: Mr. Contera? she signed up against and not wishing to speak. Marcia lane? is she here? ms. Lane, you will follow him.

>> Good afternoon Council. I'm with the greater east Austin neighborhood association. There was a talk we had after the postponement last week was that Paul hilgers told three of us from the community that the word was given by them that there was a green light to go ahead and do the cbdg funding to allocate the money to support the push up foundation. And then I was curious as to why I, who was sharing the co-chair with the neighborhood plan was the fact that ben was coming over and then we have linda dell toro came over. And I asked myself the question, why is she here? she's not from the neighborhood. She's the agent supposedly, if I'm no correct or not, to sell that property. And to allow the use of a permit without even mailing us a letter since we've been going on this zoning cases over and over. Sure, she has been there for 23 years. I remember the sister was on holly street. But there's no reason to allow another -- another program to be there another 25 years. Sure, Arnold oil has been there 30 years, but you allowed him to be another 20 years. That does not compatible to the neighborhood plan. The City of Austin is dictating again to us in the communicated by using the east Cesar Chavez neighborhood plan. That's why I resigned. When you have laura trying to do a neighborhood plan and none of these people, mostly anglo come here and not support us and fight the cause that we're fighting. They never come up here and talk. Has any of you Council Members ever seen a white man come here and say we don't want this in East Austin? have you ever seen somebody like that? so you continue to vote these things in. Without recognizing. And we keep saying that you don't want it in your neighborhoods. I mean, y'all do not have affordable housing in west Austin because it was going to deteriorate the value of homes out there. It was affordable housing. Funded by the state. And look at us. Look at our houses. So I'm asking you to deny this cdbg funding. Let them go to the bank and ask for the money. There's an idea, a child care center just like she said. We'll kick it around. Give us a chance. A child care center for our kids. These men are big and they could make choices in their lives a long time ago. You see them out there and they're in the soup kitchen. [Buzzer].

>>Mayor Watson: thank you.

>>Slusher: Mayor, ms. Dell toro -- her name came up. I don't know if she wants to speak to that or not, but she ought to have the opportunity.

>>Mayor Watson: would you like to respond?

>>Slusher: you don't have to but you have the opportunity.

>>Mayor Watson: ms. Lane, you will follow this response of.

>> I'm a real estate aelgt and I have worked with push up in the real estate transactions. I was the listed agent when they bought the property on second and I was also a real estate agent when they wrote another offer. And to me it's been an honor for me for them to solicit me as their agent because when they wrote the other offer, they said linda, we'd like to work with you because you worked so hard to obtain this building. I have a degree and I have done a training session with he -- a presentation with the women's program. And I will support any program that is commit todd developing women and to keeping the family. I've seen it myself and I am impressed with their program and their commitment. And that's why -- one of the reasons why I have continued to work with them on their programs. We also did through our company we spearheaded a fund raidsing program for them in collecting clothes and toys and furniture. Which I personally delivered. And I think -- the office that I work with is off of 360, but one of the things that we did, we set up a committee to do fund-raising for a nonprofit organization like push up. So I think that, you know, in our commitment to see what other as spekts of the community are doing to -- aspects of the community are doing to help women, really looking at a total family component, I feel like they're doing it. And their record speaks for itself. And to me it's an honor for me to work with them because I respect people that not only are committed, but have the credentials and have the percent veerns and the integraty to do such a program.

>>Mayor Watson: thank you, program. Marcia lane? yes, Council Member Garcia.

>>Garcia: I would like to also request that the speakers address the issues specifically. She was mentioned by one of the speakers. Another lady, ms. Renteria was mentioned. I don't think that's appropriate. I think we ought to keep it on the issues. Certainly there's enough issues to be addressed.

>>Mayor Watson: I agree and I'll emphasize that there are a number of people signed up to speak on this and what the Council needs is specifics on the issues and also if you're just going to be repeating what someone else has said, it probably is sufficient to simply say you're in favor of it or you are against it. He will register that, register your position in that way. But there's probably not a need to be repetitious of a previous speaker. Ms. Lane?

>>Goodman: Mayor, before she speaks, let me say I'll be off the dias, but I'll be where I can hear and see the speakers.

>> Well, forgive me, but I am going to be repetitious, because the issues brought up are the important issues. I live at 39 chal mers. I've lived in the neighborhood for 15 years and I am the white woman who is coming to speak in favor of the guadalupe neighborhood. I love my neighborhood. I've lived there, as I said, for 15 years. And I don't want to live anyplace else. And I'm tired of it being dumped on and that's why I'm here. Okay. There is -- if you want to speak to the issues, there's sanchez elementary, Martin junior high and mets elementary, which are at the most 10 blocks, in the case of Martin, about three blocks from the facility. As you go east on 35 on cesar chavez from I-35, you will see within half a mile this will be the third facility to help homeless people. We are tired of everything being dumped in our neighborhood. We're asking you not to do that to us any more. Our neighborhood is in a very delicate balance. It's being sqen derfide to a certain extent and it's being done very well. And it's mostly elderly and children. You will see kids playing ball on the street. It's like stepping back in the 50's may my neighborhood. And I like it. That's why I want to live there. And I want the kids who play to feel safe. And with the soup kitchen it's a problem. It's the big neighborhood eyesore and people are afraid to go out in our neighborhood in that area. And I think that push up, is sounds like a really wonderful thing. I am concerned as well as the other man who mentioned that 50 men living in a facility there's bound to be a problem. I also want to point out if you drive by there there's a huge driveway and there's buildings on either side. There's no yard, no grass, nothing. They have to come and go from there somehow and the way they're going to do it is through Cesar Chavez. Two doors down from there is a woman who is obviously from out of town is is fixing a building to turn into a b and b, so you can see this is not going to be beneficial to her business. Then a few doors from there is Mr. Natural, which is in my opinion the had you been of the neighborhood. Hub of the neighborhood. It's the mexican food restaurant. This will impact them tremendously. I've been trying to talk them out of moving for a long time because I love having them there and I don't want them to leave. And I know that this will probably cause them -- it will tilt the balance. Because the neighborhood is changing and is in transition, what I'm asking you to do is please don't dump anything else. One half mile on one street, okay? that's a lot to put one neighborhood through. It's a small neighborhood. I-35 --. [Buzzer]. Can I complete what the neighborhood is? I-35, pleasant valley, cesar chavez and the river. That's a small neighborhood. Please say no.

>>Mayor Watson: thank you. Mr. Ramirez signed up against, but not issue wishing to speak. Mr. Benvades signed up but not wishing to speak. Robert donnelly. Ms. Sanchez signed up not wishing to speak, but against. Michael otte signed up for, but not speaking. Fred demps signed up for, but not speaking. Wanda hood, wanda hood? shes not here? she signed up for. Mike cono? kano, I believe. It may be kand. He's for. John mcpherson. If you will make your way to the microphone. Mr. Donnelly, welcome.

>> Thank you. Each one of you get four sheets of a handout?

>>Mayor Watson: are you referring to the petition?

>> with the petition, right? okay. If you notice the top one and the highlights, every single one of those in the highlights are residences and businesses that are adjacent to that place and around the block and the periphery of that block. Okay. I guess everybody here so far has missed the real point and the issue. The issue is the policy -- I am the president of the east Town Lake citizen's neighborhood association and eve and every one of you know that and each and every one of you know that when anything comes up like this, you notify the neighborhood association or the neighbors. Not one single neighbor in that community was aware of what was coming down over here, not one single one. And I walked and I spoke with each and every one of those residents and businesses. And this is the problem. And I know why and you know why, because you are circumventing the legitimate neighborhood associations because you have set up your own puppet regime --. [Inaudible]. [One moment, please] each and every one of them was up in arms because of that. And because of the insult of the two and -- Gus Garcia is the perpetrator, I know it.

>>Mayor Watson: Mr. Donally direct your comments --

>> he directed you all to do this. I am the United States citizen, I have the freedom of speech.

>>Mayor Watson: I'm not going to deny you that, I am asking you to show some modicum for the process.

>> I am showing you that the same respect that you showed me, Mayor, this is what it's all about. You have not shown respect for our neighborhood. [Buzzer sounding].

>>Mayor Watson: thank you very much for addressing the Council.

>> He wishes to give me 3 minutes of his time.

>>Mayor Watson: do you wish to give him your 3 minutes? [speaking in spanish].

>>Mayor Watson: okay. You have another 3 minutes Mr. Donally.

>> Thank you very much. This madness has got to stop. Mayor. Because you are the Mayor. You should not be directed by someone who has those hatred towards our community. You should be and take charge of this and -- you should lead and take charge, be the leader that stands up and says no I will not damage this community, no, I will not hurt this committee. This is what you have -- this community. This is what you have done. Don't do that. Because see you did a good thing, let me tell you why. Because you woke up the sleeping giant. Last night you should have seen all of the people that were there. They were up in arms, they were very grateful that this occurred because that woke them up. And I told them, I said, well, now, now you know the kind of leadership that you have on the dias. Now that you have -- we must get rid of this dictatorship within this dias. Now, this -- you must do it now because I am appealing to the legislature that they can help us. I am appealing to h.u.d. And I am appealing to the federal government because this is illegal and you know it! using and funneling seed seed funds for your pet -- cdbg funds for your pet project that's do not benefit the neighbors in the community. This is what it's set up for. Thank you very much.

>>Mayor Watson: thank you, Mr. Donally.

>>Slusher: I have a couple of questions for Mr. Donally.

>> As long as it relates to the issue.

>>Slusher: I think it does. Mr. Donally, we voted or I don't know if we voted, but we postponed this item last week and we instructed the push-up to have a meeting with your neighborhood group. That's not a question. That's my prologue. So I am -- I thought this was very appropriate that the agency that's going to move into the neighborhood or in this case open a new facility in the neighborhood they are already in that they should meet with the neighborhood group. I think your concerns about -- those expressed by other speakers about are there too many of these sorts of facilities I think those ever legitimate concerns. What I want to address here is the decorum and respect shown to folks last night at the meeting. I think you were in the audience. Were you there, sir.

>>Slusher: no, that's why I am asking questions. If you don't mind, you did get your six minutes. Which is fine, but I would like to go ahead and ask the question, then you will be able to answer it at that time. Okay? first of all, was there a City staff member that was shouted down as they tried to speak last night?

>> that was a City staff member that wanted to come in there and take over the meeting. That was a neighborhood meeting. Yes.

>>Slusher: so was it related to the City staff member that they -- they -- it appeared they were trying to take over the meeting?

>> he came in and said, well, let's sit down, I am going to call the meeting to order. I told him just a minute, sir. This is my meeting, I am the president, I will set up this meeting and el concilio, our organization set it, this is our neighborhood center, this is my people I called to the meeting. All of the neighbors were from the east Town Lake citizens neighborhood association. How he got the idea that this was set up by the City to -- for them to -- to take, you know, to take the meeting, this --.

>>Slusher: did he want to make some sort of presentation, was that the idea?

>> who is that?

>>Slusher: City staff member.

>> I allowed everyone to make their -- to speak and make their presentation, everyone, no one was denied --.

>>Slusher: according to the director of the pushup foundation, only the people against the project were allowed to speak. Is that --

>> he is a liar and I would tell him right to his face, who is this person that you said that?

>>Mayor Watson: Mr. Donally, it probably streches the credibility of your statements that nobody was shouted down if you can't answer the question of a Council Member without calling --

>> I think that I am answering very clearly. If you don't understand maybe I can use spanish.

>>Slusher: well, I understood -- I know what liar means.

>> Thank you.

>>Slusher: I don't really -- maybe I shouldn't even --.

>>Mayor Watson: get with me later.

>> Can I say then he's a prevericator.

>>Slusher: I don't really need the remedial help there. I understand what you are saying. I am really more concerned about the tone of the meeting. I almost regret having brought this up, because I don't want to cause more division between you and anyone.

>> He's done that from the very beginning, sir.

>>Slusher: well, that's certainly your opinion. But --

>> it's the neighborhood's opinion.

>>Slusher: see, what I am concerned about is I really am not sure if I want to -- as a city official, responsibilities, we directed this group to come meet with you. If they get treated in this margin, I'm not sure what public purpose this serves. This manner.

>> I believe that you are confused, the ones that are threatened is the neighborhood, sir? have you been listened to the people.

>>Slusher: if you wanted to ask me any questions, you probably should have done that during your six minutes. I said I think these are legitimate concerns. Frankly when they are expressed in this way and when people are treated like it appears they were last night --

>> you are assuming, sir.

>>Slusher: yes, that's right, I am taking the word of about five or six people that are out here and for instance they said that someone was shouted down and not allowed to speak and -- I wouldn't necessarily characterize it shouting, but you continually interrupt me and don't seem to want to let me speak. When I see that kind of thing, it's -- it sort of makes me think maybe these folks are right, they seem to be honest folks to me. Did you take fliers that the group put out and toss them outside?

>> sir, I am not here to be inter gated and be -- interrogated and be asked questions that are beside the point. I am not going to respond to any of these silly questions.

>>Slusher: if you don't want to answer that that's fine, were people called trophy, scum and trash?

>> if they were -- again, I am not here to answer those kind of questions.

>>Slusher: you were the chair of the meeting.

>> I am chair of the meeting. Can I give you this, you done took the word of the other side, I am going to give you this side. That -- that meeting was -- was held in the -- in a very upright manner and everybody got to speak and nobody was denied their momento speak. No one.

>>Slusher: very appropriate decorum.

>> Very appropriate.

>>Slusher: no --

>> like you the members that are sitting here.

>>Slusher: as the chair of that meeting, and the meeting that was held at the request of your neighborhood and at the instruction of the City Council so the idea there would be that that -- there would be some knowledge that would come out of that, things that would happen there that the City Council could use in making their decision. So that's -- it seems to me that you would want to answer my questions. One of the questions that I am asking you, were people there called the clients of the agency were they called trophy scum and trash?

>> to my knowledge, no. Not to my knowledge.

>>Slusher: you didn't hear anything like that?

>> to my knowledge, no.

>>Slusher: okay. Well that's all of my questions, thank you.

>>Garcia: I don't have questions for Mr. Donally.

>> Oh, okay.

>>Garcia: one of the things that was mentioned was that we did not notify the neighborhood, but I know we notified the neighborhood of the zoning cases. Is there a requirement to neighborhood association notification on issues like this one?

>>Garza: let me ask Paul hillgers -- Paul, did you hear the question? I don't believe there is, but let me ask Paul.

>> I don't believe there's a requirement that we would notify them. If the facility is zoned for that purpose already in the sense of a zoning case, I do know that there were efforts made to meet with the neighborhood folks, some of the neighborhood folks since he does live in that facility. Obviously he didn't hit all of the neighborhood folks.

>>Garcia: when you sent the notice of fund availability, did you send it to many organizations, did you publish it?

>> yes, sir, it's published in the newspaper, yes, sir, it's sent to our mailing list of organizations who are involved in -- in soliciting and requesting cdbg funds, it's in the newspapers and some of them -- in several newspapers in Austin, yes, sir.

>>Garcia: was the community development commission made aware of this?

>> yes, sir, the -- this issue was brought up before the community development commission at the last month's meeting. The report on bringing this issue to the Council was brought before the community development commission. As you know the cdc does not approve contracts, but I don't want to give you the impression that they approved it. While I am here, if I could also clarify one other thing that was said. Because I want to make it clear that it's not misrepresented. I made a misstatement last week after our meeting regarding Mr. Villaro representing. What we had represented that the east Cesar Chavez neighborhood association planning group had endorsed this effort and that was an inaccurate representation on my part to that owe to see to the three folks that I spoke to. There was discussions with Mr. Villereal regarding this, but it was not to be represented as that neighborhood association because they did take officially no position on this. I know they have made that very clear to me. This last week I want to make it clear to the Council and to the neighborhood they did not take any official position on this particular project.

>>Garcia: one final question. The issue of a child care center has been brought up. Before you came to the neighborhood housing, I think that we had another notice of fund availability that generated an issue of -- to put a child care center in that area. Can you speak to that?

>> yes, sir, that's correct. Wayne pastor has $1.2 million facility that would be constructed next that congregation. The architects and engineering plans are being finalized for that and construction will be begin on that process next year and it will be, I think, a state-of-the-art child care facility, which we agree is needed in that community and will be a great asset for the residents of that community.

>>Garcia: thank you very much. Thank you, Mayor.

>>Mayor Watson: [inaudible].

>> Good afternoon, Mayor. Councilmembers. People of Austin. I am a homeless person, I have been homeless out on the streets for just over two years and then I have been put into project reentry which is a very similar program, very well structured program, very closely related to project pushup. And there's a lot of structure, a lot of push to get people going into the right direction. There's no tolerance for drugs, there's for tolerance for alcohol being used on their -- I'm not quite as structured to being in the physical plant, most of the time when I am in the neighborhood, but nonetheless I am in the physical plant, I am in my own apartment with -- sharing with another person where should there be a prescription drug or should there be any alcohol whatsoever, on the premises, it's grounds for immediate dismissal from the program. I am deeply concerned about the derogatory remarks presented here just a few minutes ago. Putting a black stamp on transients, the homeless population is not transient, it's local. It's a local population that's here for a good time. There's a certain amount of it that is transitional, transient and constantly on the move. But that does not apply to the majority of the homeless. And I appreciate any effort that you make toward trying to get the homeless people into such projects and getting them to help themselves out with the help of something like project pushup. Thank you.

>>Mayor Watson: ms. Delgado. Is demitre here? you will speak next.

>> This is -- I am edwina delgado, I am here concerning our neighborhood. It's been like the past two years seems like it's been more people hanging around that can't even go to the store, we have to be careful when we drive from the back of the yard to the alley because there's always people drinking, they even have a mattress, we have called the City police, they have come and have helped some in getting those girls and things that were not supposed to be going in that neighborhood. So we got so -- so scared that we just go to church or whenever we have to go to the store. One day my daughter-in-law was coming with my grandson from school and there was two men drinking and one of those men just pulled his pants, no shame, the child was there. That's one of the things that I am concerned about, helping those who need it, I am not against that. I just think it's too much abuse in the neighborhood by drinking and smoking, we can see -- we have already called the police several times. I'm not saying they didn't come because they did. Because that's about all that I have to say.

>> Thank you for being here, ms. Delgado. Thank you. Demitre.

>> Mayor, Council, I am David demitre, 1708 willow street, I have lived there for 16 years, I own all of the property immediately behind the saint dismus house. While they were there, while they occupied that building, they were good neighbors. I never had any trouble with them. Any concerns that I had, I just -- they had an open door policy. I went in, they were addressed immediately. I went to a meeting, I heard with this -- about this yesterday morning, went to the meeting last night. Again trying to find out what was going on. My concerns are security. You know, I heard some of the questions asked here today. I didn't hear the answers about security and curfews over at the facility. I would really like to know more. Last night I was recognized for one question and not recognized any more. I did have a lot more questions to ask. I know my neighborhood John, they do have -- there are problems in the alley behind my house, behind their house. And it is a serious situation. So that's why I would like to know more about, you know, what -- what ben has in mind for security there at the facility. Just a couple of other random thoughts. I know in the east cesar chavez neighborhood planning team in the housing section, they address group homes and I know it's going to come before Council next month. One of the things that they say in the plan is that they would conduct a survey to determine the need for the group homes in an area in the neighborhood. And last week in front of the Planning Commission I heard pushup say they supported this plan. So if you are going to be voting on it in six weeks, can we just wait a little while and conduct the neighborhood survey to see what the need in the neighborhood is? before we go ahead and allow this home? also, concerning that, max last night raised a good point. He was sort of looking for a compromise and that was that perhaps instead of 50 men, what about helping families and putting families in there? he was, you know, just trying to get a compromise out there. And I think we should look at that, also. You know, trying to reach a compromise. Maybe I know the certificate of occupancy for this is, you know, transfers with the ownership. But maybe for the neighborhood there would be some type of way that -- that if the facility creases to exist, if the group home moves out of there, the co could be changed so the neighborhood sdbtd have to go through -- doesn't have to go through in the future. Thank you. Councilmember Slusher and then Council Member Lewis.

>>Slusher: can we get ben to try to address some of the questions. City Manager, that's the second complaint or notice we have heard about activity in the alleys, if we could perhaps pass that along to the chief. And ms. Delgado said they do respond when she calls, but maybe we could look at that as an ongoing problem. [One moment please] we test you on that. In fact we do that before even you fill out an application. And we make sure that you have a job. What we are concerned about is what pushup has been fighting for. We have no problem about the program that we have that has been in the same neighborhood we are talking about for two years. I think that would be the best thing for you to look at is our track record, there has not been any complaint from any of the neighborhood, neither from the police department. The issue that you are having here is issue that we are concerned about. Before ever pushup was opposed I called the assistant police chief, michael mcdermot, he came to our facility and he assigned someone who is working with me now. So I think your concern is well addressed. Then let me also -- you talk about business. When we moved into the facility, we have been at that facility for over 30 days or close to 30 days. And none of you, none of the neighbors has had any kind of problem. When you talk about business, we have increased businesses in that place. Those guys -- all in guys in the facility to work full time and they buy and eat in that restaurant you are talking about. We put a lot of money into your restaurant. But maybe I have to look at that.

>>Mayor Watson: thank you.

>>Slusher: could I follow up with a question? elaborate, you said the assistant chief mcDonald assign one. Elaborate on how that plays out.

>> We called chief mcDonald and we have been working with lieutenant pena, who was a very good guy in the neighborhood, and a friend of mine, you know, we all work together. Dealing with the issues on the neighborhood. But when michael came he said ben, we're going to deal with specific issues, the drug dealing, there was a watch -- you know, a mechanical shop, people hanging around, drinking, and sometimes there are some people. He called me this morning and assigned a commander to me, but I cannot say his name. But I referred him to call the office this morning to assure he specifically would be working with us.

>>Garcia: is that commander landeros?

>> he say yes. [Inaudible] zr and I think you said you know where folks go when they are gone. Is that correct?

>> yes.

>>Slusher: how are you able to --

>> we have a signing in sheet, signing in and signing out sheet. When I pick it up, I know where you are and I call, I verify that. The time are -- you are supposed to be in, you put it there. That's supposed to be there. So everything is well structured. Right now let me say it is. I live in that facility that you are talking about right now. Because pending this, if we get -- when I hire staff I mention who you are and what kind of program that we need to assign you for.

>>Slusher: and what if people don't make the 10:00 curfew? what are the consequences to that?

>> if we don't have it, we have a pullup system, first of all we have to give you consequences for that, and then we have to check that behavior. If it continues, then we'll let you go.

>>Slusher: okay. That's all the questions I have. Does that address some of your concerns or at least get more information out there?

>> just a little bit more. The fence was put up across the back of that property at my request years ago because there was a lot of spillover into the alley because there was basically a parking lot there. That fence was maintained and the gate was always locked. Do you intend to do the same thing?

>>Mayor Watson: thank you very much.

>>Lewis: I have a question.

>>Slusher: did you understand the question? he wanted to know if you were going to continue keeping the gate locked and maintaining the fence.

>> Yes, we will continue to do the same thing.

>>Mayor Watson: Council Member Lewis, then Council Member Spelman.

>>Lewis: you mentioned type activities in the alleyway. What type of activities are you referring to?

>> drugs and alcohol.

>>Lewis: oh, okay.

>> There are needles back there and constantly people sitting back there drinking.

>>Lewis: are there lights in the alleyway?

>> saint dismus did maintain lights, it's no longer there. The neighbor has a light on his building and there is one City light in the alley. This is during the day, though sir.

>>Lewis: it's during the day that --

>> and night, but basically day also.

>>Lewis: all right. Thank you.

>>Mayor Watson: Council Member Spelman.

>>Spelman: are rules allow you to ask ben -- sorry, I can't pronounce your last name.

>>Mayor Watson: just for the record, none of us are intending to show any disrespect. None of us are prepared to take on the challenge of your last name.

>>Spelman: we would try your last name if your first name were not so easy. [Laughter]. Mr. Dimitri, our rules do not allow you to ask ben questions directly, but if you have any indirect questions you would like to ask feel free to do so.

>> Basically about the security, the fencing and the lighting. I believe saint dismus house had a curfew. 10:00 Is kind of late, I would think.

>>Spelman: the question would be -- I think he's answered the question about the fence and gate, keep that locked.

>> And the light to be put back.

>>Spelman: put the light back up?

>> yes, I think I did extend my courtesy to the neighborhood saying that I'm ready to work with you, I'm ready to accept ideas, I'm ready probably to say why not give me some time, let's work on it and see how it comes out. As far as I'm concerned, I'm open, I think that is one of the qualities that we have been able to negotiate with people and ready to make some changes. So I would extend invitation to you to come to pushup, sit down and talk and I'm ready to work with you.

>> Thank you.

>> You are welcome.

>>Mayor Watson: thank you very much.

>>Spelman: quick follow up. Ben's program has been in this build for a month now and saint dismus house vacated about two months ago.

>> It's been longer than that.

>>Spelman: have you noticed any change in the behavior of the people or the number of people in the alley since saint dismus left?

>> no, sir.

>>Spelman: so same level of activity?

>> yes, sir.

>>Spelman: has it changed since pushup moved in?

>> I did not know they were in there.

>>Spelman: there's been no effect on the behavior of the back alley.

>> Last week was the first time I heard there was someone in that building.

>> We moved in first of February and we have been there since.

>>Spelman: so as far as you can tell that stuff going on in the back alley has nothing to do with saint dismus, pushup, just stuff that happens in your alley?

>> correct.

>>Spelman: thank you.

>>Mayor Watson: curtis shores. Curtis shores. He signed up against and wrote no, no, no. Al -- and I apologize, I can't readal rs last name, but he's on gardner and signed up wishing not to speak but against. Okay.

>> [Inaudible].

>>Mayor Watson: do you want to donate your time? okay. Rachel gonzales signed up not wishing to speak but against.

>> I'm giving my time.

>>Mayor Watson: all right. Gavino Fernandez. If you need it, you will have nine minutes.

>> Good afternoon, City Council, my name is gavino Fernandez with el Councilo, which two of the neighborhoods that are affected by this are east Town Lake citizens and francis Martinez as president. I have one question and -- a couple of questions. One is why doesn't the east Austin overlay ordinance affect this facility? this facility was vacated in july of '98 and pushup says they moved in in February so we're talking about a 7-month period where this facility was vacated. And we notice that there was construction going on during this whole period and the east Austin overlay calls for 90 days, and if it became vacant after that, then it's a matter of the processes to notify neighborhood associations regarding the revisiting of -- or reusing of these facilities. The other question is are there 50 men living there right now? because that's not the cases. So I hope that no one is misleading you to believe that there are 50 men living there right now because there are not. The other thing is that the issue is location, location, location. Yes, there were a lot of irate frustrated, angered homeowners that have invested their whole livelihood into living in that neighborhood that were venting their frustrations because once again this organization, the City of Austin, is going to be dumping or providing another type of social service in our community that no one else in this community is willing to accept, much less dare take to their neighborhood. The other question and the other issue is that while staff was there, we are registered neighborhood association in the area, and regardless of the politics, staff should be objective and contact the neighborhood association. They know who we are. We're not any foreign strangers, Mr. Hilgers. But for staff to only contact the Cesar Chavez plan neighborhood team kind of puts us to think, wait a minute, what's going on. The other issue is that we -- our community has become an inning you baiter for social illness. Every type of injury or health -- just go to east Austin and the cure is there. We as a community, Mayor, as part of the smart program, should balance out these type of services throughout this community. And once again, I as a former aide to a elected official and from an issue of politics, no one understands the politics that's going on with this issue. Like I mentioned to ben, I know he's been there for two years, but it's a small, manageable neighborly, if you will, type of facility that our neighborhood could endure. But asking for an expansion, almost a two-fold expansion, come on, you are asking this neighborhood a little bit too much. [Applause]. And that's what we're talking about. That's the principle issue here. But many of you want to confuse it with well, how was the meeting, who yelled at who and -- the issue is that the neighborhood, the owners, the businesses, we have [inaudible] that is going to be opening up, and they are just in the bouncing mode and we have homeowners are investing big time in that area, these type of facilities do not help entices and bring economic development to east Austin. This is not the type of -- the notion, again, the notion that this Council and City staff has is that well, it's been there, there shouldn't be any problems, let's just refill it again, you know. The alcohol -- they've been drunk before, I mean let's get them drunk again is the type oFAAogy you are putting to us. And we are just tired of that. We know that you know that our people don't vote and they vote very -- in low numbers, and we know that politically you are going to vote for this facility to receive these funds because you are not going to receive a political ramification. But if this was hyde park or this was old west Austin neighborhood or travis heights we wouldn't be here. Daryl, you went out there to that -- at covington middle school where it was people that were just want to go attack you all and yet in a little meeting over here about 15, 20 people, you amplify the activity of the meeting so that we're going to punish you because you are not supposed to be talking to government and opportunitying the government like that. [Applause]. Okay? snou, the -- again the issue is respect. We may disagree politically, but at least staff should have contacted Mr. Donly, in addition to the Cesar Chavez plan folks and that's what we're talking about. Again, there were a 7-month period of time and I would like to get an answer from staff why this does not fall within the East Austin overlay.

>> The answer is that the ordinance rolls back industrial uses and this is not industrial use.

>> Cs was also part of that ordinance, City Manager. I that I that needs to be revisited. And like -- and again -- well.

>>Mayor Watson: someone is trying to give you an answer.

>> The City Manager is correct that the East Austin overlay really did two things. It looked at all the -- the zonings that are included industrial uses, it had a total of 14 uses that are listed that if you change from this use to that use, that's when you triggered the notification that you are referring to, this is a residential treatment facility that is classified as a civic use and is not industrial use.

>> But after 90 days, it lost that -- it lost that -- the foundation of the use became irrelevant.

>> Let me clarify. The 90 days is that once you -- use seeses for more than 90 days, if you have a different zoning district that does not allow the use, then you cannot reestablish it if you can demonstrate it was abandoned. The property is zoned cs, a permitted use, that means that you can -- you can start the use again, you just need to get the appropriate building permits to continue. So there is a distinction to draw between -- and I'll give you an example was bfi, it was zoned li, Council rolled back the zoning to I think office zoning or neighborhood retail, which meant that at the conclusion of the 90 day period if that use ceas dechlt and a similar use did not come in before the 90 day window, you could not establish the use because they didn't have the proper zoning.

>> I would like to use some more time. I don't want to lose my time, but --

>> does that help explain the distinction.

>> No, but it pretty much tells me what decision the City is making.

>>Mayor Watson: thank you for attempting to answer his question.

>> You are welcome.

>> They talked about children in the community, it's a very highly pedestrian walking area there's been an increase because since dismus house left there's been a sense of safety. Mr. Nachez just opened a restaurant not too long ago. They have been in the ups and downs economically. This type of facility, like we all know, does not help and enhance economic development in the areas most needed. Let's join hands and work together. We want to be neighbors, and let's help push pushup foundation find a more suitable location. That will not have the type of impact this this facility is potentially going to have in our community. And we -- I hope that you will reconsider and I hope you will join us in looking for another facility to house this program and not vote to have another one be put in our community. We waited so long for dismus to disappear and have this window of opportunity to address this issue and address this issue. It saddens me most of you -- seems like you have already made your decision and you are totally ignoring my comments, but that just goes to -- and I hope the people watching tv, that's what happens when our community stays away from the polls. I also want to remind the neighborhood in our community that three of these Council Members are up for re-election so I think it's time for accountability and it should be hitting us right now here today. Thank you. [Buzzer sounds].

>>Mayor Watson: katherine hall.

>> Hi, I'm katherine hall, I'm on the board of directors of pushup foundation and I think that the facility needs to be there because Lord only knows we need a facility for homeless men with alcohol and drug problems. We have a lot of people in Austin that complain about oh, I don't help the homeless because all they want to do is drink and do drugs. Well, when you try honestly to provide a facility for these men you have some of these residents in East Austin complaining we don't want it in our neighborhood. Well, I'm sick to death of hearing when it comes to homeless and putting a facility or shelter and instead of complaining about putting it in my neighborhood and all the trouble it's going to cause, then you should go out and try to help the homeless. I've been with the homeless, I've been homeless, I've helped the homeless and it gripes me to death when you hear people complaining you are always dumping it in east Austin. There is nothing wrong with putting it in East Austin. I've lived in East Austin. But these men need help, these women need help and everybody complains about whose neighborhood it's going to go into it, and nobody is going to get any help. I'm all for this shelter.

>>Mayor Watson: thank you. Councilmember Griffith?

>>Griffith: thank you. I would like to ask Mr. Hilgers a question, to share something with the public and with the Council that you -- that you showed me to help me understand what the distribution is of this kind of facility throughout the City.

>> We asked the pushup foundation to do a little research for us and have looked at that research ourselves to do an analysis of identifying some of the other substance abuse and homeless treatment -- substance abuse treatment facilities and homeless facilities around the City. And I've got a list of those that I will give to the Council and pass that down, and -- yeah, thank you. It doesn't have a map unfortunately, but it does identify several other facilities, and I think that -- and I'll be glad to make this available to the neighborhood, there are some -- there are some in every part of our community, and I think that the reality is that there are many facilities that provide drug and alcohol treatment and also homeless shelters that many people don't know exist in their neighborhoods and I think that that's -- that that's good. But it does show that there is some distribution among the homeless facilities in this community that is distributed north, south, east and west in Austin, and that's what I think you wanted me to speak to.

>>Griffith: thank you.

>>Mayor Watson: thank you, Mr. Hilgers. I'll entertain a motion with regard to item no. 57. Councilmember Garcia?

>>Garcia: thank you, Mayor. I want to move approval of this item and I would like to have the floor to make some comments after we get a second. If there is one.

>>Mayor Watson: motion has been to approve item 57 by board member Garcia. Is there a second?

>>Slusher: I'll second.

>>Mayor Watson: seconded by board member Slusher. Member Garcia?

>>Garcia: and this is basically to the City Manager and to people that deal with public sachtd and neighborhood integrity, whether in the parks department or anywhere else. All neighborhoods have this kind of facility. I have one in my neighborhood. It has been there for some time. Today we're not talking about changing zoning or granting conditional use permit. This is just the funds to acquire. One of the questions that -- acquire the property. One of the questions that has not been asked is how is this -- since this is a forgiveable loan, how is this going to affect how much we charge the -- the residents and is the -- what are the benefits that accrue to the City as a result of us basically making a grant of this amount. And anybody can answer that question. Paul? are you --.

>>Mayor Watson: please.

>> I would like to answer that question because this is not about whether pushup will be there in that facility or not because we will be there, we have permission from the City, we have occupancy permit, and the issue is about affordable housing, and as you know here in Austin and ben serves on the homeless task force as well as he was elected for chair for year 2000 for the Austin area home less coalition, so he is very involved in homeless issues and stays up to date in what's going on in the community, so what we found -- what we know is that the rent in Austin -- and you don't have to be on any of these coalitions to know that the rent in Austin is extremely high. It's actually -- the rental occupancy rate is high --.

>>Garcia: let me ask the question this way. Do the men that live there get charged on a sliding scale based on how much they make?

>> it is based on their income in a sense that what we do is charge -- if they have a room, if they share a room, then they get charged a less fee. If they want to have their own room by themselves, it's a little bit more. But we're looking like $200 a month. And there is nowhere in Austin that you can go to pay $200 a month including utilities, and there's no deposits. I would like to add, there's a lot of other transitional housing programs in the Austin area, but some of them are mostly private run, and because they are privately ran they have to charge their residents a higher rate and it's not their fault. But to keep the program going, and I think I have some of them listed on your handout, that Mr. Hilgers gave you, they have to charge them deposits and higher rates. And the problem with that is if you have to spend $500 and $600 a month in rent to stay in a transitional housing facility, how are you going to save up money to move out? see, our goal is about self-sufficiency and to move out. We don't want them to stay with us forever. We want they want to move into their own place.

>>Garcia: this is the first step in the road to basically self-sufficiency and we had the discussion this morning, that's what we were talking about. But in looking at your financial statements she you do have a healthy financial -- it's not a -- one that would meet the standards of a wall street firm, but it's a healthy financial statement. You've managed the moneys that have been made -- awarded to you very well and I commend you for it.

>> Thank you.

>>Garcia: and since you are not going to have to pay rent because we now have given you a grant I was trying to figure out how much more in the way of services can be provided by not having the expense of rent which I think in your -- in your accounting statement you have some expenses for rent here someplace.

>> It's listed as program fees.

>>Garcia: yes.

>> Board member Garcia, if I could just to clarify, the policy, I guess of deferred payment loan is that the structure of this will be essentially a contract that says that these services will be provided for a ten-year period -- up to a ten-year period, and that there will be a tenth of the loan forgiven of the $650,000 every year unless those services are not provided to the community. Once that happens, so the public understands what is happening, that we are actually receiving a benefit for the money.

>>Garcia: and this is very consistent with our efforts to bring affordable housing available for the people that don't have.

>> Yes, sir, that's correct.

>>Garcia: appreciate that. Mr. Hilgers, one more question.

>> Yes, sir.

>>Garcia: what happens in the event of pushup not being there for whatever reason?

>> if that is the case and we have a lien on the property and so the property would revert back, and under the terms of that contract, and or we would receive payment from pushup foundation to pay us back for whatever the -- say it was the fifth year, it would be the five years that are left, whatever the terms and conditions of the contract are.

>>Garcia: sure. Thank you very much. That's all the questions I have, Mayor.

>>Mayor Watson: motion has been made and seconded. Any further discussion? Mayor Pro Tem?

>>Goodman: I have a question. Probably for Paul.

>> Yes, ma'am.

>>Goodman: there is one legitimate issue that neighborhoods bring up and that is the proliferation of the same kind of program or social service entity being in the neighborhood, and the reason I ask is because my own neighborhood has many and we're pretty maxed out too. So that was the one thing that I thought was the most legitimate issue to follow up. Do you know if there is a proliferation within -- you know, a small parameter?

>> I'm not as familiar with the neighborhood on that, but I would be glad to have my staff do an analysis of what that is. I know that pushup has done an analysis and there are some -- I think the neighborhood plan itself would identify the Cesar Chavez street and expand that to the boundaries to incorporate some of the other areas and give you a report of exactly what services are available in that community.

>>Garcia: if you can take this list --

>> yes, sir.

>>Garcia: -- and verify it, this was done by pushup.

>> Yes, sir.

>>Garcia: all of us have them in our neighborhoods and there's so many of these types of organizations all over the City and what we -- what the issue is is that we have a big problem in this particular area.

>> That's correct.

>>Mayor Watson: motion has been made and seconded to approve -- Council Member Spelman.

>>Spelman: if I could follow up on that, hose of you that haven't had a chance to look at this, it's a list of substance abuse programs and he has broken it down guy juror graphic yarx of the there are 16 areas located in south Austin, there are 17 such programs located in east Austin. There are 23 such programs located downtown. And there are 24 of them located in northwest Austin. After we had a similar concern addressed by another east Austin community with respect to a drug treatment facility, I asked my friends at the Texas commission on alcohol and drug abuse to prepare for us a list of all the drug abuse treatment facilities in the City of Austin. And they got us a list by address, which I then asked the gis people in the planning department to actually plot. I regretting I do not have that map with me. I can't put my fingers on the map. If you take a look at the map and the dots, they are located all over the City. There is on not a preponderance of them in east Austin, certainly not on east first street. So I -- I share your concern about having any kind of a concentration of drug treatment facilities or homeless shelters or anything like that in any neighborhood in the City and if I thought that was really -- if I thought there really were a preponderance in any neighborhood then I would vote against putting additional stuff in that neighborhood. But it looks to us based on all the evidence available there really isn't that kind of preponderance. Ichl going to vote for this motion because of that.

>>Mayor Watson: motion has and made and seconded. No further discussion. All those in favor say aye, opposed? motion carries. That completes the agenda for the board of directors of the Austin housing finance corporation. I'll entertain a motion to adjourn that board meeting. Motion has been made by board member Slusher, seconded by board member.

>>Griffith: it to adjourn. The Austin housing finance corporation directors meeting. Any discussion? hearing none, all those in favor say aye. Opposed? motion carries. The board is adjourned. I'll call back to order the Austin City Council and we will go immediately to items 58 through 67. Zoning hearings and approvals of ordinances. Ms. Glasco. [One moment please].

>>Mayor Watson: if I could ask everyone in the chambers to take their conversations outside, we have some additional work. Glaz glaz I will start off --

>> I will start off with our consent items, with item no. 64. Item 64, this case is located at 13,0006200 pond springs road, zoned interim rule residence, an area that we annexed over a year ago that is in for permanent zoning. The request is to zone the property to general commercial services. The Planning Commission recommends that request with a conditional overlay, and this case is ready for all three readings. Item no. 63, Case c14-98-240 located at 2608 south first street, the request is from single family 3 to limited office district. The Planning Commission recommendations to grant limited office zoning and this case is ready for all three readings. Item no. 66, Case c14-98-271, the applicant is requesting a postponement to March 25th because he is -- he was unable to be here today to present the case. This is the applicant's first request and it was received timely base odd the postponement ordinance. Item no. 67, Case c14-98-272, located 9422 anderson mill road, the request is from interim rural residence to neighborhood commercial district, the planning commission recommendation is to grant that request with conditions. And in -- and this case is ready for first reading only. That concludes the con sont items.

>>Mayor Watson: let me ask is there anyone present that wishes to be heard on items 64 65, 66 or 67? Council, I'll entertain a motion to approve the consent agenda, item 64 on all three leading, 65 all three readings 66 postponement no March 25th and item 67 on first reading only. Motion made to approve by the Mayor Pro Tem, seconded by Council Member Spelman. Any discussion? calm Garcia.

>>Garcia: one quick question. Thank you very much. On item 67, is that lrco?

>> I don't think we have --.

>>Garcia: Planning Commission said lr with conditions and I was wondering if that was lrco or --

>> let me look at my -- Planning Commission recommendation to make sure that that is -- by won sent. I don't think we have a conditional overlay. It should be without a conditional overlay.

>>Mayor Watson: Council Member Garcia? Council Member Garcia, her answer is she does not recall a conditional overlay.

>>Garcia: so it's not with conditions?

>> it's just straight. It does not have conditions.

>>Garcia: thank you.

>>Mayor Watson: motion has been made and seconded to approve the consent agenda as read. All those in favor say aye? opposed? motion carries. That will take --.

>>Lewis: I guess I need to make a statement. On item 57, I didn't realize until --.

>>Mayor Watson: what did Council Member Spelman do to?

>>Lewis: what?

>>Mayor Watson: what did Council Member Spelman do to you? oh, your fajitas are getting cold. [Laughter].

>>Lewis: the reason I abstained on item 57 is I didn't realize until I was looking at the names of these -- the places and the location that I have an interest in some property in that area so that's my reason for abstention.

>>Mayor Watson: you are not abstaining from the consent agenda on the zoning cases?

>>Lewis: no, that was on item 57.

>>Mayor Watson: I just wanted to make sure. Thank you. Item 58 will be a discussion item.

>> Item no. 58, It's zoning case c14-98-215, the property is located at 12021 north lamar boulevard. The property has rural residential zoning lo and single family 2 and I'm gag to put a map up here. Kouls rbltion you may have heard on -- Council Members, you may have heard on several indications mention we had several stud ice initiated several years ago, primarily 1985, the north lamar area is an area we initiated zoning because it's an area we had annexed and wanted to establish permanent zoning while realizing that you had a lot of uses or pre-existing before annexation and the neighborhood want to set a tone for future dwrition, division for development as a projects and properties are phaseed out of prior uses.

>>Mayor Watson: ms. Glasco, would you mind if I interrupt you?

>> sorry.

>>Mayor Watson: yeah, Council, one of the items that we have on executive session that we have posted for an executive session, item no. 75, Involves private consultation with our attorney and it involves -- some south I'd -- south side Council has been hired by the City and one of those lawyers is from dallas and instead of continuing to pay that lawyer to wait on us, I would entertain a motion to recess into executive session. Motion made by Council Member Garcia, seconded by Council Member Slusher to recession in executive session to engage in private consultation with our attorney pursuant to discuss legal issues regarding the sand beach reserve, that's item no. 75. Is there any discussion? Council Member Spelman?

>>Spelman: how long do you expect?

>>Mayor Watson: I hope nor more than 30 minutes. If we come back out at 6:00 and take this matter up. Kind of depends on Council.

>>Spelman: okay.

>>Mayor Watson: motion has been made and seconded. Any discussion? hearing none, all those in favor say aye. Opposed say no? motion carries with Council Member Lewis off the dais. We will go into executive session. Folks, we will be back in 30 minutes. Test test. This is a test. U u u u u u u u u u u u u u u u u u u u u u u u u u

>>.

>>.

>> Qler qler

>>Mayor Watson: I'll kale back to order the Austin City Council. We'll go to item number 58. Ms. Glasco?

>> good evening, Mayor and Council Members. I'm going to pick up where we left with item no. 58. Which is a zoning case that falls within the boundaries of the north lamar area study which was initiated in 1985 to provide permanent zoning for properties that had been annexed at that time. Staff spent a lot of time studying the properties, working with neighborhood associations to determine appropriate zoning to address land uses into the future: as we have received rezoning applications since the adoption of the north lamar area study, which was zoned by map, and this is the map for the area, we have assessed where the conditions have changed to warrant a rezoning case or if we mis satisfiesed a piece of property and assigned it a zoning designation that may not have been appropriate at that time. So the change we have made to number 58 is conditions have not changed since the City Council adopted the north lamar area study in 1985 and therefore both the planning commission and staff do not recommend a change in zoning from limited office for a portion of the property, sj family two for the majority of the site and for the area in the floodplain, the zoning there is rural residence. We recommend that that zoning remain the same. We feel that the -- again, the conditions in the area have not changed to warrant a different designation of the property. I will pause here and respond to questions as they arise following the applicant's presentation and the citizen's comments.

>>Goodman: thank you, Alice. Oh, sorry, Mayor. I thought you were gone. You're back? [inaudible].

>>Mayor Watson: is the applicant here? you will have five minutes to make your presentation. Then we'll go to those who have signed up to speak.

>> Okay. Mayor Watson, members of the City Council, I want to thank you for this opportunity to present our petition to you. My name is drew mcholm. Impart of grace fellowship church and some of our board members are here this evening. We own the property in question on north lamar. We've been together a number of years, but 10 years we have around 400 members in our congregation from Austin and pflugerville and round rock and I've been the pastor at grace for seven years. My job is to share with you a history so you understand our history relative to the property. I believe some of our supporters have signed over some of their time if I need later on. Grace Christian center, then grace fellowship church bought the 20 acres in question on north lamar in January of 1985. At that time we were meeting in 20,000 square feet of office space in northeast Austin. At the time of purchasing the property on north lamar, we had just entered into a two-year extension to our lease with the landLord on yager lane. We were also searching for a permanent home for our congregation within a three to five mile radius of the facility on yeager. Our intention was to erect a thousand seat auditorium and to establish a Christian school day care, which we actually have at the moment, a bible college and some housing for missionary families and families in need. We were very excited about the possibility of building on lamar and shared some of these details with the walnut creek neighborhood association at that time. Our intention, while renting at yeager was to raise enough money to use as a down payment on our building so that the mortgage wasn't too big. We got involved in a cleanup program of the property almost immediate pli using the help of our people and the land actually was pretty dir likt and had a lot of garbage on it. We cleaned that up. About the middle of our two-year extension period at yeager, a couple of things happened. First of all, the landLord informed us that any renewal of our lease beyond the original two-year extension period would be at a significantly higher monthly cost. Samsung had just moved into the area and the Austin economy was booming. He told us our monthly lease payments were anticipated to rise from 6500 dollars a month to close to $15,000 a month. On top of all that, the consultants that we had advised us that we didn't have enough time left to apply and to get building permission and actually build on the land on lamar. So we were faced with a dilemma, about where to house our congregation. Also, we couldn't afford to make those payments and lease. And we couldn't erect on building on the site before the end of the lease term. We started to look around for a facility that would house our congregation and we found a church property that was being vacated by the church in pflugerville that was a perfect fit foe us. We could move in right away, make some refurbishments and we did that. We bought the property and in March 1998 put a contract on it and moved in october of the name year. Our original intention was very clear, and that was to build on north lamar, but because of the situations I just mentioned, we found we couldn't. Our position at the moment is we can't afford to pay the property in pflugerville and also continue the payment and the tax payments, by the way, which have tripled this year on the property on north lamar. We've thought long and hard as a group about what to do. The best option seems to be to sell the property. That's what we are trying to do. We were approached by a developer about six months or or maybe longer and have a contract on the property and so we're not actually developing the property. The developer is. We're just selling it. We've looked at his plans and developments and we feel that it's a quality project that would enhance a neighborhood that's over about 40 years old. There's still a lot of messy areas on north lamar across from where our property is and there has been no single family development there for many, many years. Our board of directors has full confidence in that we would not have entered into a contract that would have detrimental we believe to the neighborhood in which a couple of our members actually live. We also believe that the development of this project for low density multi-family housing as we understand it would be in line with the preferred smart growth objectives of this Council. I want to thank you for your attentiveness and be glad to answer my questions that you have.

>>Mayor Watson: any questions at this time?

>> I'm yielding the remainder of my time to jim bennett.

>>Mayor Watson: that was only about four seconds. [Laughter]. And that was only about four seconds and I've heard Mr. Bennett talk. [Laughter]. [Inaudible].

>>Mayor Watson: I tell you what let's do, like I said, we'll do the five minute initial presentation and then I'm going to go into the cards. So I'm serious, what we'll do -- have you kind sooind a card? [inaudible]. -- Have you signed a card? I'm going to try to follow the rules here. I'm serious about that. We have -- we're going to stop at the five minute. [Inaudible]. Well, we're not going to do -- the way the rules work is there's a five minute initial presentation and then we go to those who have signed up to speak.

>>Goodman: he could still sign a card, though, couldn't he? meyer Mayor he could still sign a card, but right now we're going to do the five minute presentation of the applicant and then we're going to go to the people who have signed up to speak. [Inaudible].

>>Mayor Watson: that's what I'm going to do. Thank you. Mary houseman? [inaudible]. Do you wish to speak on that?

>> yes, now?

>>Mayor Watson: all right. It may take more than five minutes, but I have somebody --.

>>Mayor Watson: you get three minutes.

>> Three extra minutes?

>>Mayor Watson: no. Three minutes total. Under our rules --.

>>Garcia: unless somebody gives you time.

>>Mayor Watson: I'm going to explain the rules here so we don't have people crying out what the rules are. The way our rules work on a public hearing like this is the applicant is given five minutes to make an initial presentation. Then each person that's signed up is entitled to three minutes. If someone is present at the time a person steps up to speak, then that person that is present can donate their three minutes to the speaker. Any one individual can receive enough donations to have a full 15 minutes to speak. But if you donate your time, you're donating it. You don't get to then use it. Then at the end of that, all the speech phing, the applicant is given three minutes for rebuttal, at which point we close the public hearing and the Council will have its discussion and vote. So you're entitled to three minutes. If there are people in the audience ready to donate you time, now is the time to cease it. What is your name, ma'am? ms. English? anybody else. Yes, ma'am? all right. Ms. Petty, I've got you. Yes, sir. [Inaudible].

>> That would do it. That will do it.

>> I think I've got four or five people signed up.

>>Mayor Watson: so you've got -- ms. Houseman, if you need it, you've got up to 12 minutes.

>> Thank you. That will more than do it. Okay. My name is mary houseman, I'm the board of directors of the walnut creek neighborhood association. Walnut creek neighborhood association comprises 151 families out of 600 families in the neighborhood, and that's just from the first newsletter we sent out this year. So we anticipate even more. We are located -- and gary brewer is going to be showing you the locations. We're located north of braker lane between I-35 and north lamar boulevard. And to our north is walnut creek creek on our northern border. Okay. At our request the walnut creek neighborhood was annexed for limited purposes in 1984. We requested limited purpose annexation because our neighborhood needed zoning to protect it from the rapid development that was mushrooming around us with no relation to either the existing uses or the infrastructure. Development was so frantic that the City out of necessity created the north lamar area study in 1985. This was the first of the area wide studies that determined land uses with a broad overview. The acreage under discussion lies between the office zoned frontage on north lamar, our neighborhood and walnut creek. It was the only significant tract that was zoned single family during the north lamar study. And this act was a single most important act to preserve our neighborhood. Heavier development was restricted to the north side of the creek. We believe that letting this property go multi-family would destroy our neighborhood. The single greatest reason is the route between whatever is on that property and walnut creek elementary school. The denser the population, the greater the problems. If you look closely at the map, you will see that horns by street is stubbed out so it can be died tide to any future development north of us. The prospective buyer correctly states that the apartment site separates us because of the vacant 17 acre tract that lies between us. However, when we met with him privately, he also told us that he is interested in that 17 acre site. There is no power on earth that will keep that street closed once parents will elementary age children discover that the only way their children can access walnut creek is to talk along north lamar boulevard. The other way is to accommodate the children with buses, not a likely scenario, if you know aisd. The parents will then find that there is an obvious route for their children along horns by street. But there are problems with that so-called solution that are not evident on any map. Hornsby street is a neighborhood cleblgter and the only traffic light for the neighborhood is fe entrance across from the school driveway on braker lane. This is a primary route many neighborhood children use to walk wauk or bike to school. It connects to all the side streets in the neighborhood. Much of horns by street was built in the mid 1950s to substandard specifications. Along one stretch in the center of the pavement is less than 18 feet. I measured is in front of my house, 17 feet and eight inches. It's also about this wide where cattle intersects it. The curb is an engineer's worst dream. Not only is it blind with an eight foot ditch on the side, but the road is bank had incorrectly around it. My neighbor will show you in a few moiments what can happen when you put all these ingredients together. It's a recipe for disaster. They've had a number of dispents at that sector. Now, add to the scenario the persons from tnrcc located on the southbound southbound access road of I-35 use this route as a shortcut to go north, there by avoiding braker lane. They come right down cutting through the neighborhood. This current load will soon be intensified by photographic from the apartment complex now going on west of tnrcc. We anticipate that same pattern from these residents, human nature being what it is. Now try to picture what will happen if horns by street is open to the development. We'll neat a spaghetti interchange. Our roads can't handle it, need I mention the children. Keep in mind there are no swauxs. We would have welcomed the two churches that were interested in this property. Saint albert the great considered buying it, but needed to build in a more centrally located site. Grace fellowship church bought the property, but opted to buy another church to suited their needs. Limited public use or single family use is much more suitable for this site. Around 1986 the City Council adopted a resolution to limit density to no more than double the adjacent density. To best of my knowledge, this is still in effect. Our neighborhood is sf-1. The strip between your neighborhood and walnut creek is zoned sf-2. Multi-family would exceed the density of our neighborhood by many factors. We don't want to live in a metric boulevard type area. When will all this intense development along walnut creek come to a stop? this is one of the few undeveloped tracts left on the upper reaches of walnut creek. This section of the creek, lamar -- between lamar and I-35 was designated the most beautiful section during the north lamar area study. The creek and our neighborhood are still the same as they were in 1985 when the study was enacted. In fact, the protection of this neighborhood was the catalyst that initiated the north lamar study. We have all worked very hard through the years to protect the area. The north lamar study should be upheld. A deviation from the original zoning would destroy everything we have worked for. You may not realize it. We're probably your greatest allies out there, making sure that this part of town is kept up. But anyway, we work very hard all these years and we kanlt do it without your help. Thank you very much.

>>Mayor Watson: thank you very much. Ms. Model has signed up not wishing to speak, but against. Susan mahan has signed up not speaking, but against. Myrtle brown, against. John brown, against. Sherry janes? do you wish to speak are be shown in favor? [inaudible]. Drew -- there are tom consonants here. [Inaudible]. Thank you.

>>Mayor Watson: it's mac and I couldn't figure out what you had done to me here. Gene helped me figure that out. Do you wish to speak or be shown in favor? [inaudible].

>>Mayor Watson: okay. Connie conkle? [inaudible].

>>Mayor Watson: okay. Willie hence? [inaudible].

>>Mayor Watson: okay. Just so that y'all will know for those of y'all in the charitable mode and want to donate, he now has the ultimate amount of time that he can have. But that doesn't mean you have to talk. It just means you can say you're in favor. All right? [laughter]. Just because you can't feel good about donating doesn't mean you have to talk. Barbara gergen? [inaudible].

>>Mayor Watson: okay. Joe gergen? [inaudible].

>>Mayor Watson: all right. Eddie harp? [inaudible].

>>Mayor Watson: well, Mr. Olson, it looks like your time has come. Why don't you give it your best shot. Come forward and you will have up to 12 minutes if you need it.

>> Thank you.

>>Mayor Watson: they will pass it down. Go ahead.

>> Okay. I appreciate this opportunity to share with you. My name is don olson. I'm one of the associate pastors at grace Christian center. I'm also in charge of all the building and land projects that we do there at the church. And I would like to speak on behalf of some of the concerns the walnut creek neighborhood association has brought forth regarding some of the traffic flow issues. I was present last month when the Austin Planning Commission met in the walnut creek association brought these concerns regarding the traffic. I'd like you to know that we took these matters very, very serious and we'd like to address them. We've looked into them for ourselves. Not only are we as grace Christian centers neighbors of that neighborhood, but as the pastor mentioned, we also have other members of our church that do live there also. The two concerns they've already presented are the first one is the traffic flow problem through the neighborhood. I would like to address that on the maps that you have there's veerious things showing there. As you can see, there is no direct route going east west through the neighborhood if you're trying to catch the frontage road and then get the entrance ramp into I-35. You actually have to go through anywhere between five to seven different roads past anywhere three to five stop signs to get through that route. There is no direct route at all. As you can actually see, in yellow you can see the time of how long it takes to wiggle through the neighborhood to get to a place you can get on I-35 at rush hour to silt in traffic with everybody else. The second thing is, we had looked at taking a possible route north on lamar going that way, cutting over on yager lane and then on to the frontage road and down to the same entrance ramp on I-35. As you can see, the every time we went through it, it took less amount of time to go that route. As you can see, the Austin City Council and the pik, as well as the Texas department of transportation designed north lamar to be a north and south feeding road. Parmer is east and westfiding. Braker lane is east and west feeding. There's no reason to are have to drive through the neighborhood to get where you need to. It's been designed very well so you shouldn't have to. The last route we checked into was actually going south on lamar through breaker taking it over to I-35. As you can see, the time there was very much. Anything you would have to do going through the neighborhood or trying to take horns by south to get on breaker would end up being more time, so it's not advantageous to have to go through that direction. It's very much a bottleneck on breaker in the morning and the neighborhood association can testify to that. I would like to add one thing. Is that any traffic that is going through, if they work east or west or north, there is no reason to drive through the neighborhood. If they do work south in Austin, there's easier ways to go around the neighborhood than to go through. And one of the questions they raised was the tnrcc, there is no one that would live in this project area that we're looking in the proposed area that would have to drive through the neighborhood to come home. Again, you could either take off at braker and parmer and come down lamar, which is how it was designed by Austin as well as the Texas department of transportation to work. The second major area of concern that they had was going through horns by. The possibility of that being extended. Well, the first problem with that is neither the church nor the builder owns the acreage in between that point. Very much a problem. Second, horns by, as you can see from the map, does not go straight through. It dead ends into two houses. It has to go off into road if it was going to do anything. Also, you will see the property, you can tell there's the 125,000 power line that goes through, so it's not as though a a lot will be built in that area for future. One thing we have talked with the developer, and he would be more than willing to sign anything necessary to show that horns by would not have to be extended. See, the way it was designed with the planning and everything else is there's two entrances into the property off north lamar. There's two exits also, the same ones that work both directions, therefore there is no reason this project, this development should even have to go through the neighborhood. Simply to go into the neighborhood again you can reflect back to your map is to go back into even more of a bottleneck, which you can see from the times would not gain you anything. Therefore lamar was the perfect street to go north or south to each to parmer or to braker lane. To go through the neighborhood actually I apologize to the neighborhood association. I drove through the neighborhood this last week for the first time. We've been having that property for three and a half years and I've never had to go through it,. I've never had a desire. But I had to go through it to check times. It's not convenient at all. It's easier to go the other ways that were designed by the city. As you can see, north lamar is part of the preferred growth corridor, therefore it is very much able to handle any traffic north or south to get you to feeder roads east or west. There is no reason at all to drive through the neighborhood where their association is at. Thank you very much for allowing me to share this information with you.

>>Mayor Watson: thank you, sir. Did you say you were an associate pastor?

>> yes, I am moisture.

>>Mayor Watson: the only reason I ask, I've never heard the phrase wiggle waggle used.

>> We were trying to find out --.

>>Mayor Watson: I've been hanging around charchs a long time and I've never heard of that.

>> And I don't work with youth either.

>>Mayor Watson: thank you for being here. Jim letchworth is against but did not wish to speak. Margaret brewer, do you wish to speak are be shown against? [inaudible].

>>Mayor Watson: all right. J. E. Shuberg, do you wish to speak or be shown against? [inaudible].

>>Mayor Watson: all right. Wayne tobias? please come forward.

>> I'd like to read from another neighborhood member that wasn't ainl to make it tonight. -- Able to make it tonight. I am unable to attend the hearing tonight. Would like to express my opposition to a high density development to to the property north of our neighborhood. My thought is horns by street may be stubbed out. Horns by street is burdened with cut through traffic. As you heard the last speaker, indicated he doesn't think that there's going to be that much cut through traffic. Mainly because it takes as much, if not more time to cut through the neighborhood. That's fine if you're going the speed limit. Yes, there are two stop signs when a person enters the neighborhood from lamar he enters on kato, he hits horns by. Horns by has a curve. He then has to execute a right hand right hand turn on out to covington and out to I-35 where he can get on the freeway, cutting off a lot of traffic in the early morning hours and it reverses the pattern in the afternoon and evening hours. Once again, there were only two stop signs involved in that cut through. We have passed out a little bit earlier a picture of an accident that occurred at the intersection of kato and horns by. Just basically to indicate that we do have problems. They do come through that intersection, that neighborhood relatively fast. That is a dangerous curve. Yes, it is wigly waggly. And we can run into problems. So that is our concern and the street that they made that turn on that the accident occurred at or near was horns by. You probably will have children travelling up to the school or in this case down to the school because we're travelling south. But the developer indicated he may not be developing that area. He probably can't put any buildings over there. I suspect he could use it for other purposes. And the fire department has indicated also they may want to have a cut through there to get to the back side of the complex if that's necessary. And that's all I have. Thank you.

>>Mayor Watson: thank you very much. Charlie rimert? do you wish to speak, sir? [inaudible].

>> Yes. [Inaudible].

>> Could we speak together? not at the same time, but --.

>>Mayor Watson: I was about to say, it's confusing enough. [Laughter]. Mr. Brewer, you're the next person to speak, so if Mr. Rime rechlt t, you will follow him and you've had time donated, so you will have up to nine minutes. If you would like --.

>> I'll let him go first. That's okay.

>>Mayor Watson: you have nine minutes, Mr. Brewer.

>> Mayor, good evening. And Council Members, I am gary brewer. I've lived at 11909 oak wood drive for 30 plus years. I am co-president of the neighborhood association. I've spoke before y'all before. Charles rimert is my co-president. We do this together. We worked on the north lamar study from about 1983 to 1985. We put a lot of time and effort into that, along with the Council, planning staff and everything, and it was a very good study that was put forth to protect our residential area from dense development. The agreement was to keep the dense development to the north of the creek. We have pretty well kept abiding -- everybody abiding by that. There's more and more development going on out there, we're seeing more and more dead dear and stuff on the access road that they're talking about, coyotes are coming out of the apartment complex being built from the north, coming up in our neighborhoods now, our household pets and stuff. Had one just a few months ago right in my back patio there looking at us there. Again, the development that's going on just to the north is driving all the rural habitat, driving the wildlife out of it there. The dense development is, of course, removing this habitat. And also, any time you have that type of dense development, you're going to have trash. More people, more type of throw away stuff and everything that is -- this creek, which is a beautiful creek which some of you have probably walked down it already and stuff have seen that. We're finding more and more trash from all the apartment complexes to the west of us coming down through there now. Also, we have, talking about the apartment complex to the north, that was also be part of theirs on the opposite side of the creek there we've been pushing for a roadway, the park 35 complex, which really cuts through our neighborhood over to yager lane and to lamar. There is a preliminary plat in place back in 85 to do that. That was put through. That would relieve a lot of the cut through traffic through that. You've probably heard Dave sullivan talking about his route. He workds there. Talk about a lot of his people cut through. He tells them not to cut through, but still we have a lot of cut through traffic, because it is easy to cut through from north lamar to interstate 35 there. We worked with the church group when they first came out. We really were working with them. We had them in our general meetings and stuff to develop that into a nice church property. We thought that was compatible with our single family neighborhood. And then when they got the opportunity, I don't blame them, to picking up a fully developed church, but I don't see them now making money off of our area like that for their benefit putting dense population in our area like they're trying to do. The -- about the roadway, I'll address that. I've made the same timing through using the roadways. It takes me less -- I don't know what he has, but it takes me less than five minutes to go from that area to 35 and cut on the access road. If you have the map in front of you there, you will notice that you come horns by, take down through white wing to the north and you will cut through and see a little access road that comes on to 35. Very simple to do. Normally the light -- there's always a break in the traffic where you dash out and hit that access road. At 8:00 o'clock and 5:00 o'clock if you go north on lamar and catch the light at yeager and lamar and you go east on yeager, you have another traffic light that can be very long there waiting for people to turn left on to the oncoming traffic there, correct? and then you have a stop sign that is there at 35. It's backed up. And I don't know if you've done this at 5:00 o'clock and 8:00 o'clock traffic to go in there, but I have many times, and then you have to go down the frontage road, come to the same access road that I'm talking about that cuts off through our neighborhood and cut on 35. Park 35 traffic is in there horrendous, pulling in and out. They just constantly in and out of there and there's many wrecks. If you look at your wrecks on 35, you have many wrecks between parmer, yeager and breaker on the access road, justinnious we hear the sirens now from the traffic on there. Charles, do you want to -- that would include it except for the introduction of our neighborhood group that we have. Charles can pick up.

>> I don't want to be redundant because we have a lot of other speakers, but I moved out there 35 years ago to raise my family in a backyard. Now my son owns a house two houses down from me, a real compliment for him to buy a house two houses down from me. Ease raising his family there. My inlaws are in the audience. They live a couple of blocks from me. My favorite aunt and upg he will live a couple of blocks from me. We live out there because of the beautiful trees and the single family licenses. I would ask you to keep it that way instead of putting a bunch oFAAtments in our neighborhood. Thank you.

>> I would like at this time to recognize all the neighborhood groups that have come out here. We thought we would be on earlier in spoerlt of that and we should have had more down here, but if we had known it would be this late -- anyway, I thank you for hearing us and, you know, hope you -- we've made an impression on you here and I know a lot of you support the group and stuff, have in the past. So thank you again. And y'all have a nice evening.

>>Goodman: thank you. Thank you very much.

>>Lewis: I'd like to ask the co-president a question, if I may. On the area that I have in my map, the 28 acres; is that correct?

>> it was 28 acres, but they're only developing at this time 17 acres.

>>Lewis: is that -- is that correct? is 28 acres the one in green?

>> I have another map, Council Member Lewis, but it is the total site that we're -- the church owns is a 28 acre site in round members numbers. The zoning change that is being requested covers a 17 acre tract because the floodplain is rr and it stays rr. There's an additional three acres that we're not rezoning which is adjacent to the residences.

>>Lewis: let me ask you a question, sir. If there was a no left turn on lamar, would that solve any of the problems of people cutting through the neighborhood?

>> I do not have -- do not know that at this time because on the other side you can go across and back. I would not to be able to answer that without doing a study.

>>Lewis: well, set your map back up there. [Inaudible].

>>Lewis: it doesn't matter. I'm looking at the one I have here. Which one is that? where is lamar? that one would probably probably be better, yeah. What I'm saying is this is the property up here if they want to rezone it to change, right?

>> right here.

>>Lewis: what I'm saying is if there's a no left turn coming out of the there on lamar and you have to go -- if you have to go west on lamar, would that solve any of the cut through?

>> part of the problem at 8:00 o'clock when they go to work is not stopping -- owe. [Inaudible]. So when you come down 35, you're going down here and this a big tie up now from parmer. That -- that traffic stops almost at braker. The braker entrance would still be -- which is down here. The braker entrance would still be pretty free there. The braker overpass, that traffic comes to a complete halt. So what you would do is get off of 35, a lot of people do, come right through here and they'll take either this entrance. [Inaudible]. And then they'll go over here because the lamar and braker traffic are turning here and it gets backed up right here. You are usually sitting at three lights to get through right here. Two minimum. Usually three lights going through. So what they do, they cut through here. This light right here often stops you right here and thin they can just cut out like right here. They'll just cut out here or cut down here and come out and turn in. So it's still -- it might solve a problem at 8:00 o'clock when they come out and cut through, but as far as a 5:00 o'clock problem, no, there's no way. Until they get something on this side going through where it's a loop around and take that off, we just don't -- hear.

>>Lewis: all right. Thank you, sir. That's the reason the mic wasn't working. Thank you. I had it on, I just didn't --.

>>Mayor Watson: Mr. Rimert, I apologize. I stepped out. Is he finished?

>> yeah, we finished. Thank you again, sir.

>>Mayor Watson: thank you. Earl vaughn does not wish to speak, but is against. S. L. Vaughn does not wish to speak, but is against. Tom deanna, do you wish to speak or be shown in favor? you will be shown in favor. Mr. Bennett? you will have up to 12 minutes if you need it.

>> Mayor and Council Members, I passed out some photographs of some of the uses and property development that exist along some of this stretch of north lamar do you earlier. I believe they probably made their way down. When we went to the planning commission, first of all, we didn't get a negative recommendation from the staff and that was because of the north lamar study. Staff indicated that they did not want to make a recommendation above that north lamar study. We got the Planning Commission, we had the public hearing there. The motion was to uphold the staff's recommendation, with the exception of chair baker. And vice chair in a var row and ms. Baker et indicated in a discussion of that motion that she did think the development was appropriate on the site. To go back to the photographs that I showed you, the north lamar study indicated office zoning primarily along lamar. According to this zoning map, we've had some zoning changes in 80, 85, 90 and 95 along the north lamar corridor here and that zoning I believe was in conformance with the north lamar study. However, since then back from 80, 85 on up, we really haven't had that much development along here and you still have the same uses that's always been along lamar, which is a steel fabrication, auto salvage facilities, brick yard and as the photographs show there as well as this property being used at one time as a dump site. So the property that's got zoning on north lamar, no one's been interested apparently in developing it since 85 for these type of zonings that's there. If this development goes in, it could be a trigger for more appropriate development, rather than the stuff that you see in your photograph. And I would point that out to you. As indicated, it is a 28 acre site. Eight acres of that site is in rr floodplain. There is a balance three acre tract that's adjacent to these residential units here which we are not proposing to develop. This old georgetown road has been vai indicated and does not exist any more. It would be part of the site. This property right here is developed with auto salvage, which is adjacent to the apartments. The north lamar study showed about two acres of office zoning along north lamar. According to the transportation department, generally office zoning triggers more trip generations than apartment zoning. You have to actually finesse those numbers, but in generalities, office would trigger more than the apartment zoning. So if we requested zoning of office along north lamar, then that should generate more traffic than the apartment development that we're proposing. But these photographs -- did these photographs get returned back to me or did you see them yet? I would address a few comments that ms. Houseman had. When we were at the neighborhood meetings trying to mitigate any concerns that we had, we were asked about the adjacent 17 acre tract. We don't own that tract. We haven't looked at it. We haven't negotiated or spoken to the owner about it. We implied or didn't own it, but if we did own it, we would covenant the access from the stub street and we would limit any construction to the high line that exists that runs down through the middle of the property. I've talked to Mr. Wooten, who is proposing to develop this property, and he will be willing to sign an affidavit to you saying that he will not ever purchase, inherent, receive a gift as or anything else for that piece of property. The response was only to an inquiry as to what would he do if he owned that piece of property. The church couldn't develop the site due to economic reasons and I believe I heard ms. House marn say that they had 150 members or 150 homes, I'm not sure. But if it was 150 homes times two is a 300 unit apartment, which is no more than twice the density of the adjoining property. We're not asking for high density, we're asking for mf-3. On the property. The north lamar study, it's an old study, it's probably has some merit to its study, however, as you can see now, there's been nothing to develop this section of lamar, which is in the growth corridor. It's not in a protected drinking water walt zone. It is smart growth. And we have a -- I know we're not required to do a site plan at this time, but to give you a rendering of what we're proposing, this is the project along lamar. This is the 2.75 acre tract that we're not developing. As you can see from here, there is a high line that goes from this property and on back through this property. The stub out street that was indicated to you is over here. This is a 17 acre tract which we don't own. We have no conditions that we can impose conditions or anything else on it. We don't own it. We're not really interested in developing it either. And that stub in street ties in there, so there's no way we can tie our project through somebody else's property or restrict their property. This site plan indicates an entry point add an access point. We have two drives that will come in that serve the property. We feel that it is more prudent for a person to go if you're in a quicker direct route and come to I-35 than it would be to come down and wiggle wa fwchlt ggle, was that the right term here, do that through the neighborhood. This would take you to yeager and coxville and go to 35 and go northbound or southbound southbound. As I indicated a Council to Council, the development along north lamar, with the exception I believe at braker and lamar, which is an eckerd's and albertson's store, there hasn't been any development along this stretch and all those uses which appear to be a derogatory use are still there although they have lamar study zoning, no improvements have been made. You still have all the junk cars, the auto salvage facilities, the -- until something stimulates some development on there, I think those uses are more likely to stay rather than other development. I will be available if you have any questions I might answer. Thank you.

>>Mayor Watson: anybody have any questions at this time? we have two other people signed up, but they're not speaking. They just wish to register their position. Laura hutchison has signed up against and linda pennington taylor has also signed up against. Yes? I'm sorry, what? [inaudible].

>>Mayor Watson: ms. Taylor, you don't wish to speak, right? [inaudible].

>>Mayor Watson: good. Okay. Very good. We'll show you in opposition. The applicant will have three minutes for rebuttal. If you need it at this point.

>> I think jim made a good case and as we looked at the concerns with regards to the neighborhood association, we did our own private study and driving through the neighborhood a number of times and timing it. We did do it at high density traffic times, so we didn't do it like in the middle of the day all the time, so we tested the traffic flow. One morning at seven 30 I was the only car in the neighborhood driving through. And if you notice from your map, some of the roads that access on to the frontage road of I-35 don't do it until they're passed the access on to 35. There's only two that you can actually make the access there. So we timed it. We did our best to look at it as a viable concern. And I think you get the point from what jim was saying with regards to the builder, the developer with regards to horns by street that he's willing to do what it takes to -- from his point of view that doesn't happen with that property even if he did ever own it, which doesn't seem to be his intention. I think the other thing, one of the reasons we almost decided not to purchase the property when we did was all t e junk yards and unkement property across, which is -- still is there. And as far as we can see from the look at our property, nothing has happened there in the last 15, 20 years except for at the very end where braker lane intersects lamar there is an eckerd's and an albertson's that has been built. So basically that's our petition. And I -- having looked at the plans, I think this development, which is not a high density development. It's a lower density development, would stimulate growth in that particular area. Also, as you see from the map, there's quite a large zone to keep traffic away from the creek. It's quite a distance from the last house on the -- that would be the east side to the walnut creek.

>>Mayor Watson: thank you, si. Those are all the people signed up to speak at the public hearing. I'll entertain a motion to close the public hearing. Motion is made by Council Member Garcia, seconded by Council Member Lewis to close the public hearing. Is there any discussion? hearing none, all those in favor say aye. Opposed say no. The motion carries. The public hearing is closed can Council Member Slusher off the dias. That will take us to the substance of item no. 58. Council, does anybody have any questions?

>>Lewis: I have a question. Could you -- owe is this -- I presume that this is within the speed limits, right?

>> yes.

>>Lewis: and the whole area, the neighborhood area is all in the City limits?

>> which -- which?

>>Lewis: between the creek and the braker lane. Is that whole area within the city limits?

>> I believe so. Let me pull my zoning map.

>> We were annexed for limited purposes in 1984. Specifically for zoning.

>> When the property is annexed for limited purposes, it is still in our jurisdiction. The jurisdiction -- whether it's limited or full shouldn't matter. It doesn't make a difference. Here, this is -- this is I-35. And I believe this is howard lane. So everything that is north of howard lane is in the City limits, so this is the area, the north lamar area study covered, I-35 is the eastern boundary. The north you have howard lane running right here. So you have properties to the end of our -- where we abut wells branch mud, that's the municipal utility district, this is where our City limits still end because that mud is still outside our City limits and everything south is in our city limits. Does that help you?

>>Lewis: yes. Thank you.

>>Mayor Watson: any other questions at this time? I'll grain is a motion on item no. 58.

>>Spelman: Mayor, I still have a question. Alice, the staff recommended against this zoning change. Using the north lamar area study as a basis. Could you explain the rationale behind the north lamar area study and why this lot was originally zoned sf-2 in that sfud.

>> The purpose of the area study tried to obviously enhance or maintain or expand some of the single family development. Here is a single family subdivision that ends right here, so it would be appropriate to extend single family to this point and then transition as you got further away into some more insensitive commercial zoning. As you can tell, we have some multi-family zoning north of the creek and limited office and the further away we moved from the tract, the zoning district got a little bit more office oriented. The goal was to keep the properties on north lamar to have office zoning. This is the area we introduced office warehouse because of a lot of industrial type uses, junk yards, office uses. The desire was over time we realize it takes several years before those uses fades out and the neighborhood changes as far as the character goes in development. And therefore eventually along north lamar what you see are some office type of uses, warehouses where the front of the building looks like an office and the warehouse is in the rear of the facility. And then have you the single family. It's supposed to be office, limited office with some residential and of course, multi-family to provide a balance. So we thought this was appropriate for single family given the proximity to the existing single family naind.

>>Spelman: okay. So the idea then was south of walnut creek single family, either sf two or in this neighborhood already existing sf-1. The far side of walnut creek is where we'd be getting in commercial zoning, retail stuff, maybe warehouse sfuf.

>> Right. And we have to keep it limited low intensity zoning, some office warehouse, nothing more intensive than that. That was the goal to keep it low intensety so you would keep it over time uses that were more office oriented and residential. Single family and then multi-family. Here is a map, an aerial photography that shows the residential subdivision and then everything else to the north of the subject tract.

>>Spelman: okay. Just a follow-up question. We have this map which was handed out by the applicant. I guess it was -- it must have been the applicant. Where there is a section here on the far side of walnut creek where the creek -- the main flow of the creek and a tribute terri of the creek come together off of walnut park crossing. And there is an annotation on the map that says 800 units of mf-2 under construction.

>> Excuse me. My map was falling down on me, here. Go ahead, Council Member.

>>Spelman: okay. Is that area also covered under the north lamar area plan?

>> to the north? yes, that's part of the north lamar area study.

>>Spelman: was that zoned under the north lamar area study for multi-family uses?

>> I need to take a look at the map you have to compare it to my map. Here is the subject tract and here is the map in front of you. That's the subject tract?

>>Spelman: the subject tract is in yellow. The tract I'm referring it is just to the left of that.

>> Yeah, fmf-2, yeah. Spell how many units is that approximately?

>> mf two allows 23 units per acre gross density of actual net density would be about 17 units per acre. 10 Would give it the realistic density in an acre.

>>Spelman: spell okay you wouldn't know how many units were under construction there?

>> no, I don't know offhand, but is fairly small area right here, smaller than that, and this is 17 acres.

>>Spelman: and it would be -- that was zoned mf-2 under the north lamar plan?

>> that's correct.

>>Spelman: thanks.

>> I believe that's 360 units.

>>Spelman: how on earth do they get 360 units in that little space? do you put six stories in mf two? [inaudible].

>> They're building right up to the eth of the creek. Where we have a lot of floodplain.

>>Spelman: we can look down at them and waive at them.

>>Spelman: I see. Okay.

>>Mayor Watson: I'll entertain a motion.

>>Garcia: move the planning commission recommendation.

>>Mayor Watson: motion has been made by Council Member Garcia, seconded by Council Member Spelman to approve the planning commission recommendation. Is there any discussion? hearing none, all those in favor say aye. Opposed say no. Motion carries on item number 58. That will take us to item number 59. Thank y'all for being here tonight.

>>Garcia: can we take a recess to get them out?

>>Mayor Watson: let's do that real quick. Instead of item number 59 -- thank you, Council Member Garcia for calling that to my attention. Let's go to item number 68. The purpose of item 68 is to conduct a public hearing regarding a change in the street name for the entire length oFAAsas to chapa street to the end of the right-of-way at the intersection oFAA sass street and east third street in order to recognize adam l. Chapa senior for his outstanding community services. The way this has been set up, Council, is there are two people that have been designated to speak in favor of the name change, rocks san chapa, a sister, and doty chapa, the mother. And so I'll call on most roxanne chapa first. Welcome. We're happy to have you with us tonight.

>> Thank you. Good evening. My name is roxanne chapa. Adam lee chapa was my brother. The last act of his life was an attempt to make piece. He died just across the lawn of 200 aran sass street, my mother's home. My grandfather purchased the lot where my mother lives many years ago to build a home for my grandmother. They lived there for many years and now my mother resides there. My family is the only one which has ever resided in that house. Each time we pass or visit my mother's house, we see adam in our minds on the spot where we last saw him. To rename this street after my brother adam is to honor his life and to memorialize him for his children who were robbed of every child's birthright, a father. It is to honor our mother for the son she has raised and lost. It is to keep add dpam lee advise individual in our minds and in our hearts. It is to remind our neighbors and friends of the kind of man he was. Blessed are the peace makers. Thank you.

>>Mayor Watson: thank you. Ms. Dottie chapa? I'm pleased you're here with us tonight, ms. Chapa.

>> Good evening. I am the mother oFAA lee chapa, senior. And the reason I believe my son is worthy of the street name change on which his life was taken away from him so needlessly is because of the kind of person he was, very loving, caring, always making people laugh and smile. He always took time out for other's needs, family, friends and even a stranger. When his children look at the street name, they will know that their father had to have been a Goodman. They are young now, a son, age ix and a daughter, age three. He was an usher at the catholic church foe many years. He started coaching little league baseball fresh out of high school before he started his own family. He also played baseball at pleasant valley sports plex, both winter and summer. He was always active in anything that pertained to sports. Adam was a very good person to his family and to the community. He and efertion he has ever done will never be forgotten. He is the best son a mother could ever ask for. Thank y'all.

>>Mayor Watson: thank you, ms. Chapa. There are a number of people signed up, but they're not speaking, but I want to read their names into the record. We've already heard from dottie chapa, debbie chapa. Ka treen in a Martinez is in favor. Pat douglas. Charlie chapa, ms. Gonzales. Diane taylor, ms. Tomio. Jennifer vera. Thomas -- I can't read the last name. Say it again. [Inaudible].

>>Mayor Watson: thank you for being here. Marcus chapa, pete ruiz. Melissa vela. Do min go gonzales. Buster cap cheen no. Jonathan her than des. Council, I'll entertain a motion to close the public hearing on item number 68.

>> So move.

>>Mayor Watson: motion has been made by Council Member Lewis, seconded by Council Member Slusher to close the public hearing. Is is there any discussion? did I miss somebody?

>>Garcia: no.

>>Mayor Watson: hearing none, all those in favor say aye. Opposed say no. Motion carries. The public hearing is closed. Item 70. I'll recognize Council Member Garcia.

>>Garcia: thank you, Mayor. It's with a great deal of pleasure that I move to approve this change in the street name for the entire length oFAAsas pass to adam l. Chapa senior. Let me say that Mr. Chapa did everything that's good in this world. There was a time when people said that in East Austin you couldn't get leaders to coach and he took the initiative to work with buster and the other people in the greater east Austin youth league where today 12 or 1400 kids play. And adam was one of their leaders. It was unfortunate the way he died. The Lord called him at the wrong time, I guess. But maybe it was the right time for him. I don't know. Whatever the case may be, he left a legacy that should be remembered by all of us because he was a great guy and we all will miss him.

>>Mayor Watson: motion has been made by Council Member Garcia. Is there a second? seconded by Council Member Slusher. Discussion? let me just say that the many nights we're up here, sometimes late in the night that there are moments that we get to serve as Mayor and members of this Council where you take great pride in this job and one of those times is when we have an opportunity to honor someone who has meant so much to the community the and you don't have to go very far to see the benefits of the entire community from the work of one life. So tonight is a special pleasure for us and we really appreciate y'all being down here. We're touched by Mr. Chapa and by your presence. Is there any further discussion? hearing none, all those in favor say aye. Opposed say no. The motion carries on a vote of seven to zero to change the name to adam l. Chapa senior street. [Applause].

>>Garcia: gar Mayor, adam died on twisth of March, 1988. 25Th of March, so the dedication ceremony is at 10 a.m., March 25th. And I guess you will tell us where. March 25th at 10 a.m., 200 adam chapa.

>>Mayor Watson: yeah, 200 what? [laughter]. Well, bless your hearts and thank y'all for being here with us tonight. Congratulations. Council, -- ms. Glasco, let me ask you a question and I haiti to put you on the spot here, because there's no way to make predictions, but on item 59 through 63, it's my understanding that you want to present those as a single item. We only have one person -- I take that back. We have two people signed up to speak on that item. I'm inclined if that is going to be a short discussion item to take that up before we get into the longer public hearing and let those two people not have to sit through a longer public hearing without holding you to it, what's your prediction? is this a long one or short one?

>> you're right, Mayor. You're putting me on the spot.

>>Mayor Watson: if you don't want to, I won't do it.

>> The staff presentation will be brief and so will the applicants. The dilemma I have is the Planning Commission did not forward the cases to you with the recommendation, so it might require a lengthy discussion among Council Members because you do not have that recommendation. That's -- that will be the only part that I can determine how long that will take.

>>Mayor Watson: here is what I recommend, Council, that we do. It's 10 till eight. Why don't we take up items 59 through 63 in hopes that the two people wouldn't have to spend the longest amount of time waiting on another public hearing. And what I would suggest we do is the Council attempt to have this item completed by 8:30 so that we can move to the other public hearing, which is item number 69. And obviously we're not held to that, but that is an opportunity to set a goal. Miss glasco, why don't you proceed on items 59 through 63.

>> Mayors and Council Members, I'll start off by reading the various items. The five items are located and I'm going to move to the map. The five cases are located south of the intersection of 620 and fm 2222. The properties are highlighted in pink. They range in acreage from half acre to 17 acres, that's the largest tract. The properties are in question were annexed a year ago and seeking permanent zoning. The properties to the north were previously in the City limits. We just annexed them and we're going to annex them again and we're able to assess a zoning again. The requested zoning is gr, which stands for community commercial for each of those tracts. There are five of them. They're owned by five different owners and they hired one agent to help represent them. The staff recommendation is to grant the zoning changes with the requirement that right-of-way be reserved and dedicated as state ised in the staff report for future expansion of 620 and fm 2222. The dilemma the planning commission had was the fact that our recommendation capped kept each tract to 2,000 vehicle trips a day. The tracts range in size from a half wake acre to 17 acres. At this time there isn't a traffic impact analysis because there are no specific uses. Our ordinance allows a capping of no more than 2,000 trips, but that is certainly not to indicate that the development on the site will be at that maximum because what you need it realize, the properties are located within the hill country roadway corridor, which requires very stringent requirements in compliance with the hill country roadway ordinance. Your square footages are based on the slope grade yents to the site. Your height is kept at no more than 53 feet. So given those requirements, it's not easy to achieve those caps. We feel that at the time of specific development, we'll then be able to assess the amount of square footage proposed and therefore if the threshold exceeds 2,000, then the traffic impact analysis would be required and from that document we'll be able to assess the types of transportation improvements that are needed. That would mean either providing singlesation at the intersections or providing left turn lanes or right turn lanes as might be needed to facility traffic flow. All site plans for this project will require planning commission action and those site plans are appeal able to the City Council. So we feel like the appropriate mechanisms are in place to provide the checks and balances needed to look at traffic, to look at water quality and the hill country requirements. Those are the key areas the Planning Commission just had difficulty. Their vote initially was to grant the staff recommendation of community commercial zoning with a cap of 2,000 vehicle trips per day to each tract and require right-of-way dedication and reservation. The Planning Commission vote was four to three. They failed a reach a five vote which is a quorum vote for a recommendation to you and that is why you do not have a recommendation from them. But their concerns were traffic and the fact that they were not able to assess that at this time. I will pause there and let the applicant give you their presentation and staff can respond to questions.

>>Mayor Watson: you will have five minutes. [Inaudible].

>> All right. Thank you. Mayor and members of Council, as ms. Glasco pointed out, this property is located near the intersection of two major state maintained highways. It's long been the policy of the planning department at the city to encourage development of these kinds of facilities at intersections of main -- sorry, of large arterials or state maintained highways. What we have out here is an area that is not adequately served by retail use. I had -- owe let me move to the map. I had my gs people take the household account in several census tracts which I would consider to be probable for the market area of the property. That would be area west of 360, north of lake Austin, across mansfield dam over into the lakeway area and down 620 down to about 2769. Based on the '98 projections by a reputable firm from the 1990 census there are many households in those census blocks combined at this time. Is when we had the hearing in front of the planning commission, there was dern about traffic and that was discussed at length. That's why we went in with the additional overlay of 2,000 trips a day. I'd like to point out to you that three of these parcels -- there are go halfway acre parcels. When you run the calculations on the square footage of building on it, there's a little over 4,000 square feet on the half wakers and. And waised on the calculations, the two half acres tracts would general rit and the two-thirds acre at about 1,000 75 trips. Of course, of course, the two larger trips, 2,000 trips and when you do all the math, is comes out to about 64 hundred trips a day. Obviously the two large tracts would come in with tia's. As ms. Glasco pointed out, it's impossible to establish an accurate tia now. My problem is if we do it today it's going to be skewed to the high side not knowing the use. It would be a burden? some and unfair to the property because we don't know what's going to go there and for example, if we had a nursery on it and several acres obviously, we wouldn't have the traffic generation that we might have with a large restaurant. As I pointed out, the site is under served with development. I know river place is a big concern with traffic on 2222. We don't think it's likely. Other roids are going to be constructed out here similar to 2222, so the premise or possibility I put forth is that this area needs retail services dpretly. It's possibly probably the most underserved area in the msa, if not that, certainly the county. When we do this, we cut off trips that are being taken into town on 2222 and 620. And this should relieve some of the traffic flow on 2222 and 620 by not having to drive all the way in. I've lived in the area for 30 years. I'm wear of the problem. It's 10 miles to a supermarket. We're very pleased that h.e.b. Is going in at the intersection. I think it underlines the need for retail in that area. Those people don't often make mistakes. The river place neighborhood is agreeable with this. I presented this plan to them in july and they've given us a letter of support, which was in the zoning applications. We would like to establish a basis bais zoning of gr for the property to be able to proof to the market that we do have commercial zoning there. There is no argument the tia requirement, but we like to have specific use when that time comes and we know what we're going to put there. The owners are aware that it's a new zoning process, we have to go through the public hearing process in order to be able to achieve a higher than 2,000 per tract counted. The other thing I would also remind you is the three small tracts, even though they will have less than 2,000 tips trips a day, cannot transfer the excess count to another tract. It is not cumulative. It is site specific. So that's why we're at 64 hundred trips a day and 36,000 square feet rather than taking five times 2005 times the maximum square footage. It can't be done. All of these people wish to sell their property now. Many of them are advanced age and are looking for the property to help them in their retirement. And I'm trying to help them achieve that and if we can get this --. [Buzzer]. We should be able to do it. Thank you.

>>Mayor Watson: thank you, sir. Frank King?

>> thank you. I'm here on behalf of my mother on item 61, bernice king. She apologizes she couldn't be here tonight. She's not feeling well. She bought this property, it was a one acre tract. It's the yellow one on the map. Back in the mid 70's as an investment. She's from Austin. I'm second generation Austinite. She and my brother ran an ice house and a convenience store many years until the highway department came in and took the front third of the one-third acre for the 620 widening. In doing so they bull deesed the building and the business and since everything was grandfathered, she could not replace it at that time. At least two-thirds of an aiblger with no building with current codes and setbacks, it's too small to develop. Essentially it's a useless for anything. My mom is 77 years old and she's not in very good health. She bought this property over 20 years ago and has been paying property taxes all these years and this is her retirement, essentially. And the only way for this property to be worth anything as Mr. Spence said is to combine it with others and get the gr zoning. And I'm just asking you to approve the gr zoning. Thank you very much.

>>Mayor Watson: thank you, sir. Councilmember Lewis? [inaudible].

>> It's this one right here. Are there any other questions?

>>Mayor Watson: anybody have any other questions? thank you very much. Those of all the people signed up to speak. I'll entertain a motion to close the public hearing on items 59 through 63. Motion is made by Council Member Griffith, seconded by Council Member Slusher. Is there any discussion? hearing none, all those in favor say aye. Opposed say no. The motion carries. The public hearing is closed. With Council Member Spelman off the dias. Council, do you have any questions before we take a motion?

>>Lewis: I'd like to ask staff a question?

>>Mayor Watson: ms. Glasco, could you please come forward?

>>Lewis: what's the status of the intersection of 620 and 2222 as far as the traffic? what's the rating there now?

>> I'll let him address the traffic.

>>Lewis: and the other question is this 7.9 agers, what's the zoning on it, the jack d. Masonry? -- marony?

>> that's interim curl residential. We currently have an application pending for zoning change. So that's going to be coming to you in about four weeks.

>>Lewis: all right. What is the level of traffic at that intersection? [one moment, please]

>>Slusher: so that was basically the choice of the property owners. Even though they brought it in as a single case, they didn't have to file the t.I.a. Because they are separate owners?

>> they were brought in as five separate cases and although they have the same agent they were under separate ownership.

>>Slusher: I guess the problem I have is once all those cars are out there, nobody is going to be able to tell the difference. And -- what's the rating of this intersection right now?

>> we don't have a current assessment since there was no t.I.a. Required, but I estimate it's probable level service d or e based on previous studies.

>>Slusher: d or e?

>> yes, which is marginal or unacceptable. But there have been some improvements identified, some initial turn lanes and there have been some funds posted by other developments in this area that would help improve the level of service somewhat.

>>Slusher: what about further down on the 2222? and I understand that some of these trips will be coming from this area, but in general we realize that's a pretty bad traffic problem, that whole stretch, wouldn't you say?

>> it's presently operating within capacity, but there are a lot of projects that have been approved along 2222, many of them dating back a number of years that are still grandfathered and based on a study that was done several years ago, if everything built out to full -- to its full development potential, there would not be sufficient capacity on the road. Now, we don't anticipate everything to actually build to the full potential that it could, but -- but in the longterm there could be some capacity problems.

>>Slusher: okay. That's all my questions for now.

>>Lewis: I have one other question.

>>Mayor Watson: Council Member Lewis?

>>Lewis: ms. Glasco, do we have any documents from riverplace neighborhood association as to -- I understand that they agree -- agree with the zoning, they support the loaning.

>>Glasgo: yes, there's a letter that Mr. Spence attached supporting the zoning change that is attached to your packet. And it was dated -- they took a vote on july 20th of last year. And there's a letter dated july 22nd from ernie woodbye, the chairman for the riverplace residential community association supporting the change.

>>Lewis: all right.

>>Spelman: have we heard from any other neighborhood associations in the area?

>>glasgo: no, we have not. That I'm aware of. No one is here.

>> I contacted long canyon and they had no problem with it. That's the only neighborhood that I spoke with.

>>Spelman: who in long canyon did you talk with?

>> the next major subdivision.

>>Spelman: I understand that. Who in long canyon did you talk with?

>>Mayor Watson: can you please come to the microphone?

>> I'm sorry. I'm having a hard time remembering.

>>Spelman: james baker?

>> james baker represents riverplace and I work closely with him in terms of getting their association. My contact with long canyon was strictly by telephone. I think one was howard chambers, the contact man I believe for proposed development projects. And he -- his words to me-I faxed him the information, told him about the meeting and he looked over and says riverplace doesn't have a problem with it, we don't have a problem with it. That's what he said.

>>Spelman: Mayor, question of staff. I realize that a t.I.a. Would be very difficult to do for generic gr zoning, we need to know more about what is going to go on that lot to come up with anything resembling a t.I.a.. On the other hand, there is a p.u.d. Across 2222, which is under construction now, as I understand it.

>> The riverplace planned unit development, the ross perot property, had -- they had a planned unit development, they had a t.I.a., the p.u.d. Was approved in 1988 and amended probably two or three years ago to address the fish & wildlife requirement for additional preserve land. The develop their is occurring now is a grocery store, a h.e.b. Store that is finally taking place within that development. And the development was planned over ten years ago.

>>Spelman: right. One other -- what other uses are planned for that p.u.d.?

>> there is some multi-family, some research and development, office facilities, so it's predominantly office, the retail that is taking place now, and multi-family. There's no single family.

>>Spelman: okay. So we're talking about h.e.b. And I believe there are a couple of other lots facing 2222 that we've also just recently zoned for gr or some other retail uses.

>> Correct. We zoned a piece of property that had an existing automotive sales use that needed to bring it into conformance.

>>Spelman: how large is that p.u.d.? in terms of acreage?

>>glasgo: it's over 400 acres.

>>Spelman: okay. Okay. So that's an order of magnitude bigger than anything we're talking about here.

>>Glasgo: absolutely slough. It's pretty large.

>>Spelman: that's that whole section off the map.

>>Glasgo: it abutts canyon creek neighborhood, subdivision.

>>Spelman: is a t.I.a. Required for the h.e.b.?

>> there's a t.I.a. Required for the p.u.d. Because of the the amount of square footage, we knew that, and it was revised, the t.I.a. Was revised because they changed their phasing schedule to the traffic analysis. So yes, we had that.

>>Spelman: could we get an estimate for the traffic impact of that h.e.b. And anything else that's going to go in that phase of the development?

>>glasgo: yes, we can extract that from the traffic impact analysis. Do you want it tonight or would you like for us to bring that to you at -- before -- depending on what you do here, we could present it at second or third readings or you could delay action until we provide that information.

>>Spelman: if either of you or george know off the top of your head to the nearest thousandth or so that would be helpful.

>>Glasgo: I would have to rely on george, if he remembers reviewing that traffic impact analysis.

>>Spelman: this is a test, george.

>> The older I guess the less I rely on my memory.

>> Very wise.

>>Lewis: we have the numbers here, george.

>> Offhand, I would just be guessing.

>>Spelman: okay. I won't ask you to guess. Thanks.

>>Griffith: Mayor?

>>Mayor Watson: yes, Council Member Griffith.

>>Griffith: I think like Dr. Spelman I need to get some sort of a feel for this. The idea of saying -- bringing these in as a package as if they were a unit and saying but we can't estimate the traffic, it makes it difficult. Is there a way that we could get some kind of feel for it? either tonight or next week or -- what would be practical?

>> well, I think one consideration the staff had the same concern as Council because we didn't want to see, you know, each one come in piecemeal and generate a large number of trips without having the ability to assess the traffic out here. I think the one consideration in this case is that three of the tracts are fairly small and would not likely generate 2,000 trips per day, they would be more in the neighborhood of 1,000 trips a day maximum if they built out to full intensity that is realistic in this area. Not just what is allowed by zoning, but what is actually feasible.

>>Griffith: so the grocery store is the real thing probably?

>> the h.e.b.?

>>Griffith: yes.

>> Yes she it's already under construction. I think it's nearly completed.

>>Griffith: what would be the biggest generator of the proposed uses and what would it --

>> we have no proposed uses at this time. They are simply asking for gr zoning. Gr would allow things like a grocery store, convenience store, fast food restaurants and so on, but because three of the tracts are very small, it would be difficult to actually generate 2,000 trips per day on those and the larger tracts as well are limited to 2,000 trips. They cannot transfer those trips from the small tracts to the large traktsdz. So most likely what will happen whether the larger tracts actually have a future user, they will have to request a change in the zoning they will have to prepare traffic impact analysis, and they will have to come back to you to request removal of that 2,000 trip cap and that will give you another opportunity to look at the traffic on --.

>>Griffith: so you are saying that it could be developed as one thing? as one piece?

>> yes, it could. It potentially could. But -- but we -- we are not aggregating the total number of trips, 2,000 trips on each one of those five parcels.

>>Griffith: but it could become a group planned project essentially.

>> Yes. That's probably what will happen.

>>Griffith: then we have no feel for how many trips per day it would be. You were talking about how we're reaching capacity here with what is already approved, and if it were all built out we would be at capacity and beyond. One of the things that seems to be happening is certainly we can zone and we can have some impact on the trips per day on what's inside our City limits, but the -- what seems to be building up is the 2222 load from the hill country that we have absolutely no control over whatsoever in terms of zoning and density, and that makes it a more sensitive decision.

>> Yes. Well, that's a problem we face on all major roadways especially state highways because they are designed to carry traffic from outside the City.

>>Griffith: that one being almost chafrbed out of hillsides also make it more difficult to deal with.

>>Spelman: Mayor?

>>Mayor Watson: yes.

>>Spelman: I want to be sure I understand this. If the owners of these lots were to combine the lots together into one large lot, would they have to come back for rezoning or not?

>> if we wanted to exceed that cap of 2,000 trips. On -- well, first of all, the three small tracts there, they could potentially develop a small retail facility on one of those for example that would generate less than 2,000 trips and -- something that would stand on its own. But the larger tract would also be limited to 2,000 trips for that entire acreage there.

>>Spelman: right.

>> So realistically, that property would not develop, you know, a single facility that would only generate 2,000 trips. They are probably going to want to come back and increase that cap. And at that time they would have to prepare a traffic impact analysis and be rezoned to remove the conditional overlay and so you would have another opportunity to assess the traffic at that time.

>>Spelman: okay. So if somebody wanted to go over 2,000 on that big tract, even if they were talking about combining all the smaller tracts, they wouldn't combine the 2,000 from here and 2,000 from there. It doesn't carry over.

>> That's correct.

>>Spelman: in the center, they are going to have to come back and do a t.I.a.?

>> that's correct.

>>Spelman: and as I remember from looking at the traffic engineers manual, the only small -- the only building small enough to fit on those three lots that would generate anywhere near 2,000 vehicle trips would be a gas station with a convenience store attached to it. Is that roughly correct?

>> or possible a fast food restaurant.

>>Spelman: okay. So the only way we get up to 6,000 trips on those three 2,000 lots would be a fast food restaurant and a gas station then?

>> yes, that would be a good estimate. You could perhaps if you wanted to impose a lower cap on those smaller lots, less than 2,000 trips.

>>Griffith: Mayor?

>>Mayor Watson: yes, Council Member Griffith.

>>Griffith: since it will maybe be developed as one thing, could we put a cap on the combined project, sensing that it might come back that way?

>> well, each case is filed separately so you would have to put a cap on each individual case, I think.

>>Griffith: even though it may very well be blended at some point before it comes back?

>> well, but again they could not exceed the cap on that individual -- on the area that you are zoning right now with that specific case. The cap applies to that specific area, so you could not -- you could not combine the trips. Even if you combined the property, you could not combine the trips and increase the number on the entire area.

>>Goodman: Beverly, could I follow up on what you are asking?

>>Mayor Watson: Mayor Pro Tem.

>>Goodman: george, could I ask all right right now everything -- or let my clarify and make sure I am clear in that each tract was given 2,000 trips?

>> that's correct.

>>Goodman: each one. So cumulatively there are 8,000 trips at the moment if you were to add them all together even though they came in separately.

>> There are five tracts so it would be 10,000.

>>Goodman: oh, 10. Right, I forgot. Okay. So conceivably what we could do is what you were talking about the potential generation the small tracts having 1,000 as opposed to 2,000, then 2,000 for the -- for the two larger --

>> that would be one option you might consider.

>>Goodman: but that would be legal the way it's come in?

>> yes, you have discretion to do that with zoning.

>>Goodman: thank you.

>>Slusher: Mayor, I want to try something here. I feel like that I'm not convinced this area is too short on retail, especially with the four points approved across the street. I would rather wait and see what happens there before I decide it's too short on retail. I think it's too heavy on density already for an area this far from town and this near our water supply, and I think it's definitely too heavy on traffic already, both at this intersection, further down 2222, which I think this would generate some more traffic down that way. And I just don't believe we should add to the traffic problems that we have in this area, so I would move to deny.

>>Mayor Watson: motion has been made by Council Member Slusher to deny. Is there a second?

>>Griffith: I'll second it for discussion.

>>Mayor Watson: seconded by Council Member Griffith. Any discussion? Council Member Lewis?

>>Lewis: I have a question. If we deny the gr, does that mean that it remains irr and is?

>> yes, if you deny it and not designate a permanent designation, you could drop the interim and just zone it permanent rr. That's one option. Or if you do not make a motion to assign permanent zoning, it will maintain its interim designation and I think we'll have to work on an ordinance to drop all the interim december ition nations so we'll take care of that through the conversion.

>>Lewis: yeah, well my reasoning for asking the question is that I would -- since they filed one zoning request, I would hate to have them to leave it at something that can't be used and they have to come in and file another zoning request. I think because it's never been zoned since it's been inside the City, I would like -- I would prefer to at least zone it something. And if that takes doing a first reading and then coming back with some type of change or whatever, but to put it back to what it -- you know, to no zoning basically, I don't think is something that the -- because I know it's been some fees paid for the zoning application.

>>Glasgo: actually the fees were waved. These are some of the cases that benefited from the one year grace period you authorized so they benefited from the no fee payment process.

>>Lewis: all right. Thank you.

>>Spelman: Mayor?

>>Mayor Watson: yes, Council Member Spelman.

>>Spelman: I'm concerned about denying zoning for retail in -- at an intersection of two major streets. For better or worse, 2222 is heavily overledded but it's the primary collector street for several thousand people who live on either side of it. Right now they do have a long ways to travel if they even want to go to a grocery store. That's going to be changed shortly, but there's a lot of other retail uses besides grocery stores not being served by this zone location and I think gr is appropriate. I think the problem is the amount of traffic and we don't have much control over the amount of traffic if we're limited by 2,000 trips a day. Let me offer a substitute motion which will at least start sto alleviate that. On first reading only, that we zone the three smaller lots gr with a limit of 1,000 vehicle trips per day, and the larger lots gr with the current 2,000 vehicle trips per day. As --.

>>Mayor Watson: just say it one more time.

>>Spelman: sure. We have three small lots of less than one acre each, which I propose gr zoning, those three, thank you, which I would propose for gr zoning with a limit of 1,000 vehicle trips per day. And the remaining larger lots gr with a limit of 2,000 vehicle trips per day. I don't think this is going to pose tremendous problem for the applicants because I believe in the long run we're going to be combining all these together anyway and when they are combined together anyway, the current owners of the property railroad the developers are going to have to come back with us and submit a t.I.a. That is going to be specific to the uses they have in mind. So I don't believe this is going to be a problem for the owners and I think it's going to provide a measure of safety for us in the Council.

>>Mayor Watson: motion has been made by Council Member Spelman -- let me start this way. Councilmember Slusher, do you take that as a friendly amendment?

>>Slusher: no, Mayor.

>>Mayor Watson: all right. Then is there a second -- I'll recognize that as a potential substitute motion. Is there a second.

>>Goodman: I'll second for discussion.

>>Mayor Watson: seconded by the Mayor Pro Tem. Let's have discussion on the substitute motion by Council Member Spelman, seconded by the Mayor Pro Tem.

>>Goodman: I was wondering if we wanted to do gr, I also don't want to leave it as it was because I think that just puts it off till a later time and doesn't really resolve anything. Could we maybe do -- if you are going to have -- actually, where is Alice? I don't really have a picture at this moment for what kind of gr only generates a thousand cars. I mean a thousand trips. What might that be?

>>glasgo: from my understanding, the uses -- if you want to consider prohibiting uses that generate a lot of traffic that bring it up to 2,000, you would have to prohibit -- either all restaurants or fast food restaurants generate the majority of your traffic. And your convenience stores where you have gas stations and gas. So you might want to consider prohibiting those uses that generate a lot of traffic that would bring it up to a higher threshold. So if you are going to cap it at 1,000 square feet -- a thousand trips per day you might also want to prohibit those high traffic generating uses. Keep it down. Does that help you, Mayor pro tem?

>>Goodman: yeah. Well, would you consider, Council Member, a few prohibitions on use or making it lr -- making the small ones lr and turning the one large gr into grmu with the 2,000 cap?

>>Spelman: grmu stound like a fine idea. That wouldn't put any prohibitions on the property owners, they could develop it in gr in the usual way, but p they also had some more clever ideas for putting some residential, some office use in there as well, that would be perfectly appropriate. That would limit the traffic intensity as well.

>>Mayor Watson: do you agree with the lr?

>>Spelman: I prefer gr with a specific prohibition on fast food restaurants, that's one of our -- we are capable of limiting fast food restaurants?

>>.

>>Glasgo: yes, we are spefl annual glasses glass you can limit food sales.

>>Spelman: we could just limit food sales on a small lot.

>>Glasgo: convenience stores. That's about all could go there. I would also like to let you know that item 60, the smaller tract to the north, they are requesting a mu combining district, so if you recommend lr, you might want to add a combining district because there's a residence there now and if they want to continue operating as a business currently and a residence, then they -- they are covered either way. That's the only tract that we have mu combining request and the request is to community commercial mixed use for that tract.

>>Spelman: I would overlook that for 60. I agree with that. [Inaudible].

>>Spelman: 60 and 63.

>>Mayor Watson: tell me what you just -- fixing to do.

>>Glasgo: on 60, there's a -- the mu combining, the mixed use combining.

>>Mayor Watson: on 60 and 63?

>>glasgo: that's correct.

>>Mayor Watson: so you are saying -- are we changing from the gr to the lr? is that the motion?

>>Spelman: I wasn't sure whether that was a friendly amendment I was rejecting.

>>Mayor Watson: that's what it sounded like to me. That's why I'm confused. Maybe I spaced out, but I didn't hear you accepting that and now we're talking about the lrmu.

>>Goodman: I think that's to come though. That's not one we have tonight is it?

>>Spelman: grmu I think on 60 and 63 was a staff recommendation and that's covered by my general substitute motion for the staff recommendation.

>>Mayor Watson: then I misunderstood. Here's what I understand the current motion -- substitute motion to be. That on the larger tracts, grmu with a limit tation on 2,000 vehicle trips a day, on the three smaller, the ones that are less than one acre, it would be gr with a limit tation of 1,000 vehicle trips a day and a prohibition against fast food sales and other food sales.

>>Spelman: if I may clarify that --.

>>Glasgo: fast food restaurants and food sales.

>>Mayor Watson: okay.

>>Spelman: item -- no. 60 Is one of the small lots. Is fom l. Numb 63 -- is numb 63 also?

>> yes.

>>Spelman: those two would be zoned grmu as well. Actually we could just zone the whole thing grmu. That's a lot clearer.

>>Mayor Watson: do you take that as friendly amendment Mayor Pro Tem?

>>Goodman: do we still cap the vehicle trips?

>>Mayor Watson: as I understand the motion, on all lots it would be zoned grmu. On the three smaller lots, those being less than one acre there would be a limitation of 1,000 vehicle trips a day and prohibition against fuse food restaurants and food sales and on the larger lots the -- the grmu, it would also have the limitation of 2,000 vehicle trips a day. Do you consider that friendly?

>>Goodman: practically, yes. [Laughter]. Well, on the prohibited uses, there were a couple more I know we talk about a lot in this area, gas stations is one. What do you think about prohibiting gas stations?

>>glasgo: we've covered -- we don't have a definition for gas stations. We typically -- that comes with food sales. It's part of your convenience store because you don't have a stand alone gas station.

>>Goodman: so we would have to say convenience store fuel sales or something?

>>Mayor Watson: as I understand it there's not a prohibition against convenience stores. The way that is done is through a prohibition of food sales.

>>Glasgo: we have a gas service.

>>Mayor Watson: all right.

>>Glasgo: service station. We have food sales.

>>Mayor Watson: do you consider that friendly?

>>Spelman: sure.

>>Mayor Watson: we've now prohibited fast food restaurants, food sales and gas services. Anything else?

>>Goodman: automotive services automotive services.

>>Spelman: those would not be a generator of traffic. There would be justification for that I presume.

>>Goodman: environmental issue.

>>Spelman: sure. I'll go along with that.

>>Goodman: thank you.

>>Mayor Watson: here's the substitute motion. All tracts would be zoned grmu. The three smaller tracts would have a limitation of 1,000 vehicle trips a day and prohibition against fuse food restaurants, food sales r gas service or auto service. The larger tracts would also be g roochlt mu and limit tak of 2,000 vehicle trips a day. Any discussion?

>>Slusher: Mayor, this is first reading; is that correct?

>>Mayor Watson: yes.

>>Slusher: if the substitute motion passes for second reading, I would like to see a list of approved projects in the area.

>>Glasgo: Council Member Slusher, how far do you want us to go? what are your boundaries that you would like for you to -- for us to capture?

>>Slusher: I would like to see maybe a mile each way up and down 620 and then back to -- to -- sorry?

>> riverplace?

>>glasgo: on 2222?

>>Slusher: I would like to see further than that on 2222.

>>Glasgo: 360?

>>Slusher: I don't want to put the staff through hundreds of hours of work, but I thought some of this information had been compiled before. I would like to see what we're facing -- give me a mile back down 2222 also.

>>Glasgo: and this is just traffic related information?

>>Slusher: yes, that's correct.

>>Glasgo: okay. We will provide that information.

>>Mayor Watson: Council Member Griffith?

>>Griffith: misglasco, I'm trying to get ahold of the same thing I think everybody is, would it be practical to tell us going by that intersection, going by 620 and 2222, what the percentage increase per year of traffic count has been the last, say, three years? I'm trying to get a feel for how fast it's coming up and how much it's coming up.

>>Glasgo: okay. So just to -- you just need to know the percent of traffic count increase within the last three years, so we can see how that has either increased -- grift percentage increase per year from all sources is coming in. Is that practical to do?

>>glasgo: we will work with the power department and Public Works and we'll let you know. George is --

>> we do have a number of traffic counts. We'll have to look to see what the available by year, but we can get you what you have.

>>Griffith: and if it's convenient, five years would make it more reliable.

>>Slusher: ms. Glasco, if you would contact my office about the request about what -- other developments and we can work to make that as easy as possible on the staff to add more specificity to that request, because sometimes this takes the staff longer than I would think, let's say, for good reasons. So I don't want to add a huge load, but I do want to know -- I want to know some of the other traffic impacts that we're facing.

>>Glasgo: we'll be in touch with you.

>>Mayor Watson: Council Member Lewis?

>>Lewis: will you speaking of proposed approved developments?

>>Slusher: yes, grandfathered developments that are already passed through and generated a lot of traffic.

>>Lewis: that could be built tomorrow.

>>Slusher: yes, sir, that's correct.

>>Lewis: yeah. All right.

>>Mayor Watson: motion has been made and seconded. I'll restate the motion, first reading, it is the all lots zoned grmu, three small less than one acre lots have a limitation of 1,000 vehicle trips per day and a prohibition on fast food restaurants, food sales, gas service or auto service. The larger lots are grmu with a limb tak of 2,000 vehicle trips a day. Any further discussion in hearing none, all those in favor say aye. Opposed?

>>Slusher: no.

>>Mayor Watson: motion carries with Council Member Slusher voting no. That concludes items 59 through 63 on first reading. Thank you all. That will take us to the next public hearing which is to conduct a pob hearing and grant limited adjustment of the s.o.s. Ordinance pursuant to the land development code section 131305 for the barton springs pool as required by the endangered species act 10 a permit for operation and maintenance of borts pool and identified in the final habitat conservation plan approved by the fish & wildlife and by the americans with disabilities act. We are going to conduct a public hearing on item 69 and at the conclusion of item 69 we will go back to item no. 30 Which is -- I will not label the action item, it is in effect the action item on item 69. Mr. Roger duncan will begin the presentation.

>> Mr. Frederick, and I want to note that we have Mr. Frederick here with us from United States fish & wildlife. After Mr. Duncan completes his presentation, I would call on you to make your presentation immediately after that.

>> Mayor and Council, Mayor, I might point out that actually you need to act on item 69 as well as item 30 at the conclusion of the public hearing. Item 69 is also the granting of the --.

>>Mayor Watson: I apologize, you are correct. Thank you. Usually Council Member Garcia points out those errors, but I'll take it from you too. [Laughter].

>> Thank you, Mayor. Mayor and Council, as you know the City of Austin has worked with u.s. Fish & wildlife for many years to try to provide a place where barton springs pool can provide safe habitat for the salamander as well as a swimming place for the citizens of Austin. As of october 2nd of last year the City concluded negotiations and received a 10 a permit, habitat conservation plan from the u.s. Fish & wildlife service. That permit required the certain -- required that certain actions be taken to comply with the permit within a limited time frame. In the course of developing that permit, there were numerous public hearings held over 75 days of public input occurred, two 30-day comment periods, three public hearings several meetings with swimmers both at the pool and at City hall. Before I go over the actions to be taken in the pool area, I would like to point out a couple of items that were in the habitat conservation plan on october 2nd that are not included in this action before you tonight, and perhaps -- incon spik use by their absence. In the october 2 document, there was a water control feature to be placed across the middle of barton springs pool, sometimes referred to as a dam. The purpose of which was to keep the water levels up while the shallow end of the pool was being cleaned. At that time we -- staff met with swimmers. We said that we would try to find any means possible to not put in the dam if it were possible and in the interim we found a under water cleaning device that has been used by sea world that we have tested in the pool, it seems to be an adequate job of cleaning, and because of that, we are not bringing forth to you at this time the dam structure and are going to under a separate item bring forth the purchase of that cleaning device and hope it proves adequate over the next year or so and continuously for the cleaning of the pool and we would not need to put in that dam structure. The second item that was in the october 2nd document that is not before you tonight is the so-called under water sidewalk. The history of that object was that the beach area -- and roblt, let me introduce Robert hanson, our biologist with the watershed protection department. If you will point out the beach area along the pool, that whole area along side of the pool is salamander habitat and the original proposal was to lower this beach area to about six and a half feet so the swimmers could swim over the habitat area without stepping on or harming or harassing salamanders the same as they swim over habitat areas in deeper portions of the pool. During the public hearings on the permit last summer we had some swimmers say that they really wanted an area to remain there for standing and wading in that area. That beach area is a thin level of gravel a few inches thick and that's where the salamanders actually live. The rest of that -- several feet of that area is clay and fill that's been there for several years, it's heavily compacted. And the original proposal was just to dig it out and lower that area. We came back after a few swimmers requested it and looked at putting in a sort of swimmers' safety bench area that's been referred to as an underwater sidewalk for people to be able to stand on or rest on. In recent months we've had numerous swimmers say that they did not want that area to be put in the -- into the pool and so we have gone back to the original proposal and have approached the u.s. Fish & wildlife service for a minor amendment to the habitat conservation plan and have received that to go back to the original proposal and to lower that beach area. I will now go through the items that we are going to -- actions we're going to take in the barton springs pool area, and you will see they are numbered on the map. The first item is at the dam portion, the far damn portion of the pool and it's to install a submersible pump to provide spring water for pool cleaning and watering uses, cleaning the sidewalk areas and other cleaning activities around the pool instead of using chlorinated City water, we will in fact be pumping stream water through a pump and using it to wash down areas and clean areas in the pool. The second and -- and items 2 and 7 as are designated on the map are all for compliance with the americans with disabilities act, the ada. Includes smaulg drinking fountains compliant with ada, there is a concrete ramp that will go over existing stairs which will allow accessibility into the pool via a ramp. There are various stairs and sidewalks that will have stainless steel handrails installed among them, and there will also be a stainless steel grab bar along the pool wall which will apply safety for swimmers all around the pool including in the beach area that is being lowered and it is a rail that is going to be textured in such a way that it will not be slippery and easy to hold on to. Also as part of the ada requirements there will be designated handicapped parking spaces, curb cuts, signs and striping in the parking area outside the pool. The other items that are going to be done in relation to the habitat conservation plan include repairing and modifying the gate structures in the downstream dam. At the current time these gates are like irrigation slu skates, there's a board there that you literally jerk up and the water drops rather fast. You cannot replace the gates because of water pressure. What we will do in these -- at these gates is install a device where you can slowly crank them open and crank them back down and be able to lower the gate very slowly and then lower it back down and the water -- and let water move out of the pool at a slower rate. We will be -- the final two items that we're looking at is to lower the existing beach to a minimum depth of six and a half feet to protect salamander habitat. Again the way this would be done, the pool would be lowered. We would by hand remove salamanders from the beach area into the dealer water, which is what we currently have to do when we are cleaning the pool and have to lower the water. After the salamanders have been removed to deeper water, we would remove that top level of gravel and dig out the impacted clay and fill that is -- that is accumulated there over the years and lower that entire area to a depth of about six and a half feet. The gravel would be replaced at that depth, revenge at a timed and the salamanders would move back into that habitat. The last thing that we would be doing in the pool area is near the area called bedichek rock, near that location on the floor of the pool there are some fissures in the rock where gravel exists, cracks, if you wish, and those are salamander habitat. What we would be doing is placing some thin limestone labs over throws and anchoring them down so swimmers could actually stand or walk there and not be stepping on salamander habitat. Those are the items that we're looking to undertake. This work has gone before the historical commission, the parks board, the environmental board and the planning commission for approval of various pieces of it, from maintenance to the historic aspects suspects to a variance for working the critical environmental feature, it has received unanimous recommendation from all those boards and commissions. Thank you.

>>Goodman: thanks. Could I ask you something, and I don't -- well, a couple things and maybe this is for you or Mr. Frederick, I don't know, but so you know ahead of time. We got something from helga Williams. Have you seen that?

>> yes, we have and we have worked with that, and on most of the items -- and I believe ms. Williams is here tonight. She can speak to that when she comes up. Most of the items really dealt with vibrations from the original sidewalk proposal which is no longer relevant, but ms. Williams can speak to other portions of that as well.

>>Goodman: ramp location is what I'm --

>> the ramp lotion, yes, and I might -- I might add that as a result of ms. Williams' work on the ramp location, we are looking at moving the ramp from the distribution it is moving -- it was originally proposed and going down to the other entrance so that the ramp -- it moves not upstream but downstream. And we have made that modification after conversation with ms. Williams. But she can speak to it burg the public hearing.

>>Goodman: and the other thing I wanted to ask you had to do with a fax we got tonight -- or today, but also we have in the past which is nobody objects so much now to the things that we're going to do, but they wondered why it has to be done now, especially the ada improvements right at the beginning of the swimming season.

>> Councilmember, the -- the habitat conservation plan was approved october 2nd. It had a six-month time line in it to get the work done, to -- we have moved as quickly as we can, recognizing that there is never a good time to close barton springs pool, we wanted to move as quickly as we can. We would like to have gotten the work done by now in February or so with engineering, with other issues with several boards and commissions to go through and City process, this is as quickly as we've been able to move. Our main goal was to get the work done and the pool opened before the summer swim season opened. But I think Mr. Frederick can speak to the necessity to move ahead for come blins with the permit.

>>Goodman: thank you very much.

>>Slusher: I have a couple questions. Mr. Duncan, would you compare for me the cost of the new cleaning devices, the sea world type devices, the cost of those versus building the dam?

>> I'm going to speak off the top of my head here. I think the dam was in the nature of 300, 400 -- four to five hundred thousand dollars, and the devices -- 60,000.

>>Slusher: how many of them are we buying?

>> two.

>>Slusher: so that's about three or 4 hundred thousand dollars savings.

>> That's correct.

>>Slusher: could you do the same comparison on the sidewalk versus the lowering of the beach?

>> the budget amendment that was originally prepared for this work was $774,000, and the budget amendment before you tonight and the only major change is removing the sidewalk is $490,000. $470,000.

>>Slusher: so $300,000?

>> yes, 300,000.

>>Slusher: okay. So we've saved about -- over the original plan we've saved about -- almost half a million?

>> at least, yes.

>>Slusher: okay. And when you talk about lowering the beach, we're talking about from where to -- it's all the way to the back I guess you would call it, but where does that start? let's see, it goes down to the dam, right?

>> that's correct, it goes all the way to the dam.

>>Slusher: from where?

>> Robert, why don't you get the mike and --

>> the set of stairs that comes down from the dressing areas and the gift shop where the one-eighth mile marker is, we have solid bed rock here and as we move downstream, the gravel beach area it begins. So we will start to remove it at this point here, probably about 30 feet downstream of these stairs and then move down the entire beach area.

>>Slusher: so it will be six and a half feet there.

>> Well, there will be a transitional area, Mr. Slusher where solid bed rock will be less than six and a half feet in depth, but since it's solid bedrock it's not salamander habitat, and one we reach a depth of six and a half feet then it will be lowered uniformly.

>>Slusher: and I had heard -- would you clarify this for me, is this taking the pool back to its natural state? that's one thing I've heard. I'm not talking about the whole operation, just this beach.

>> No, it's not. There will still be a large area of the beach area that is clay and chreejy that has been brought in through the years.

>>Slusher: but that will be six and a half feet though?

>> in this area between the two sets of double stairs, it will be back to its natural substrate. But further on down where the pool -- the bottom of the creek bed is nine to ten feet.

>>Slusher: okay. But that part -- okay. I understand what you are saying. Okay. Mr. Duncan, so based -- I've followed this really closely, spoke to the -- one of the public hearings before our friends from the fish & wildlife service and basically there have been a number of changes, and correct me if I am wrong, but the fishers where the springs come out were going to be off limits to swimmers?

>> that's correct.

>>Slusher: and we've come up with a way now to keep that from happening, correct?

>> that's correct.

>>Slusher: but putting thin sheets of limestone over the fissures. Then we were going to have the dam across the pile and that's been eliminated, and as we already pointed out saving -- that one saved about one to 200, I believe. And then there was going to be the underwater sidewalk and that's now been eliminated and that move saved about $300,000. Is that correct?

>> that's correct.

>>Slusher: okay.

>> Yes, and removing the dam saves probably $350,000.

>>Slusher: oh, real sni.

>> The dam would have cost around 500,000 or so. The two underwater cleaners are 60,000 each so it's the difference between about 120,000 and half million or so.

>> 60,000 Total for both.

>> I'm sorry, 60,000 total for both. Versus a half million for the dam.

>>Slusher: so 350,000 savings on the dam and 300,000 on the sidewalk and we get to continue to swim over by the fissures.

>> And I want point out at this point have you a significant percentage of the pool that is roped off and inaccessible to swimmers. When we finish the work, 100% of the pool area will be accessible.

>>Slusher: so open back up in may the ropes will be gone?

>> that's correct.

>>Slusher: aren't we also doing some plumbing improvements on the clubhouse?

>> that's not -- we are, but that is not part of this.

>>Slusher: is the City though is going to do some other improvements that aren't required -- I know the clubhouse isn't endangering the salamander.

>> And there are additional ada improvements we will be doing to the bath house itself.

>> There are other items that will be done and in addition to this, but they did not require the limited adjustment

>>Slusher: I got you. Thanks.

>>Goodman: Council Member Garcia?

>>Garcia: Mr. Duncan, these sea world machines, how do they work? are they vacuum machines?

>> Council Member, we have a video that we can show you at some point, but it is a vacuum and it looks sort of like an underwater vacuum clean their scuba divers work with. It is gentle enough but effective enough to pick up the silt but the results look like you have vacuumed it.

>>Garcia: it doesn't swallow salamanders?

>> no, sir.

>> The machine itself is similar to a floor scrubber. It's about two feet in diameter. You can have different lengths and courseness of bristles. It runs off water pressure, has no hydraulic fluid or petroleum products. And you can run it under two moedz, run it without a shroud where we could just be scrubbing the slipperiness, you can also run it with a shroud and vacuum machine and pump everything out. If you think of the challenges of sea world where they have three tanks very similar to barton springs, they cannot lower the tanks, they have live animals, a large amount of allergy buildup, a lot of the same challenges we have and these machines are specifically designed to deal with this situation.

>>Garcia: last question has to do with siltation. Over the years has silt increased in the pool?

>> silt in the pool increases and decreases depending on flooding events and the intensity of them.

>>Garcia: but as a general rule, has it been remaining flat or has it been going up like this? the amount of silt.

>> It -- like I say, it depends. The october 14th flood of last year scoured the deep end of the pool, scoured the shallow end of the pool also. Moved some of the gravel off of the beach area down towards the dam. It did very little to increase the amount of silt in the pool. The november 1st flooding, which was not a severe, deposited more silt. And these under water machines can be used as vacuums in all parts of the pool that are not salamander habitat to remove silt.

>>Slusher: Mayor Pro Tem, Council Member Garcia brought to mind one I didn't think to ask -- two. How did the machines -- I still don't understand how they don't damage salamanders or suck them in the machine.

>> We won't be using the machines in salamander habitat. The point is that about 75% of the pool is not salamander habitat.

>>Slusher: so you don't go near -- that's how it doesn't --

>> exactly. Previously we couldn't clean those areas without lowering the water level and that's what endangered --.

>>Slusher: okay. Because there's not a little screen over there or something.

>> No.

>>Slusher: okay.

>> We don't have salamander excluder devices. [Laughter].

>>Slusher: all right. One problem people have had at the pool, and I've seen kids slip, fall down on the slippery rocks down in the shallow end, is this going to make that better?

>> we can clean the shallow end on a daily basis if we need to to control slipperiness, so I anticipate that conditions in the shallow end will be greatly improved, yes.

>>Slusher: so it will be safer for kids -- for everyone, but in particular I've seen kids slip and fall, hit their heads.

>> It's been a concern during the past years. One thing I might point out, at sea world these machines cover approximately 40,000 square feet in a day, and that's about the size of the shallow end of the pool, so we should -- and we're purchasing two machines, so we can clean the shallow end of the pool on a regular basis.

>>Slusher: okay.

>> Much more frequently than now.

>>Slusher: thank you.

>>Goodman: no more questions? okay. Thank you very much. And I'll ask Mr. Frederick to please come speak to us.

>> Thank you, Mayor Pro Tem Goodman and honorable Council Members. My name is Dave frederick, the supervisor for the's fish & wildlife. My area of responsibility is about 70% of Texas. One part that have is of course the barton springs. One thing that I would like to tell you to acknowledge Austin is since we have been working on this permit since 1997 in june and I arrived in '98 in February, I have received several hundred calls from everybody from developers to environmentalists to just people wondering how 7 to 9,000 people can exist with a endangered species in the middle of an urban area. It's a fa not number that does not occur probably anywhere else in the United States so it's a very unique situation. But as I was saying in 1997 we started this habitat conservation plan because the City realized that it was uncovered in liability under the endangered species. And for approximately a year and a half we worked diligently with the City and it has been a very friendly relationship. When I arrived in February I was very concerned about the biology of the salamander. There was very little known about its biology within the pool. Again, working cooperatively with the City, we did major cleanings like they normally did on the pool and were able to come up with data that was sufficient to tell us where the concentrations of the salamander were and also the impacts to the salamander. This was tested in a lawsuit against the City and the fish & wildlife service last summer which both the City and the fish & wildlife service prevailed and the reason is our biology was strong enough to -- to carry the day, I guess, in court. But part of that biology has shown us where the concentrations are and the beach area is a major concern for the City and the fish & wildlife service when we put this permit together. It's a major concentration area for the salamander and under the endangered species act a take is harm, harass, kill, various and sundry things like that. So we figured a way to do it and as roger duncan so well put it, all the alternatives we could think of were in that permit for public comment. There was a safety issue there and the City has decided to put a sidewalk. Well, after further consideration, the City felt that they could do this by just lowering the beach area, which we concurred with. I think Council Member Slusher has stated the several flexible things that we have been able to work out over the last year and a half, and especially over the last six months. But one thing I would like to impart to the Council is that we are about five -- a little over five months into this permit and the work was supposed to begin immediately. The permit was structured to allow for time. With the cost and the engineering that had to be done with the sidewalk, there was a delay there and that was understandable. But it is imperative that we start lowering that beach area as quickly as possible. The fish & wildlife service I think has shown its flexibility with the City and the swimmers. We have done as much as we can. But just like you all, we are bound by law to deal with this particular situation. I think from what I hear from roger and various other City officials, this type of attempt to lower the beach is not that time consuming. It should not leave the pool unswimable for a long period of time. Now, we can't control mother nature and floods that could occur during all this construction period. But we're hopefully being able to lower this pool in a very short period of time. With the flexibility comes a responsibility for both of us, but this permit lasts for 15 years. And essentially if the requirements within the permit that we have both agreed to are fulfilled, the City is free to carry on its operations with the pool and with the great blessings of us. We are very proud of what has occurred in barton springs and this 10 a 1 b permit technically called under the endangered species act, I think it's been in tremendous cooperation with folks on the Council as well as with the Mayor and yourself, Mayor pro tem, and we're very proud of this. Again, I would like your consideration of allowing this to go on and very quickly. So we do not get in trouble with the permit issue and I want to thank you for your time tonight. Is there any questions?

>>Goodman: thank you. Do we have any questions? [one moment please].

>> I want to thank them for their patience and reasonableness. It hard to change your plans. It's like having a baby. You protect it when you thought of it. So I really appreciate it that they have change and have listened to us and have changed the plan. And as I understand the present plans, I approve of the new gates. It's something that is long overdue. The handrails around the pool, the ones on the south side are rusted and half gone, so this is needed. The ada plans are overdue and the lowering of the beach, approve of that. I never did touchdown there, but that's a selfish thing. And I do have some reservation about the slabs that are to be put over the fistulas, but since any permanent changes to the pool itself is like fooling with mother nature, but I've been assured that these little slabs are not going to change much of anything. My wish is that the work be done as soon and as quickly as possible so that the springs can be open for swimmers and the regular season usually starts in March and so maybe it won't be too late. I would hope that the early morning and the late swimmers could swim while the construction is being done because that -- the springs continue to flow. And I've been swimming in it when it's been lowered for a long time. Maybe we can work out something with the construction people on that. Hopefully the salamanderers salamanders will 35 and multiply and the feds will be happy. I'd like to take this opportunity to speak to my real concerns. [Buzzer]. Too much rainfall and not enough rainfall. [Buzzer].

>>Mayor Watson: is there someone that will donate ms. Rick ter some of their time? --.

>> What was that?

>>Mayor Watson: I was trying to get you an additional three minutes so you can finish talking?

>> I just have a little bit more.

>>Mayor Watson: ms. Leonard is donating her time to you.

>> Thank you. There's too much rainfall and not enough rainfall. Too much rainfall causes flooding, which creates a major cleaning problem. And too little rainfall could possibly cause the springs to stop flowing. Both of these problems can be solved by long-term planning to slow and retain and direct the flow into the aquifer. It takes people smarter than I am to solve this, but it needs immediate attention. Thank you.

>>Mayor Watson: thank you. Ms. Richter. Karen kreps?

>> thank you very much. I've been swimming almost daily in barton springs for the past five years. And I've attended well over a dozen meetings along with many other swimmers about this. I wish I felt as positive about it as some of the people who have spoken before me. You've already pointed out how half a million dollars has been saved by reconsidering what was originally in the hcp. And I would encourage you to continue to reconsider some of these plans and to get more input from swimmers and from additional biologists. A lot of the things that were proposed just go against common sense. Such as the idea that by bringing in heavy equipment and bulldozing, excavating daengs habitat, you're actually helping the species. I've been told that that will be mitigated by creating new habitat. I would like to see that new habitat started immediately all over the pool and see how many salamanders we can grow before we destroy any of their habitat. Many of the speakers of the swimmers have said that we would be -- nobody like ooohs the ropes. We'd love to see them gone, but we'd be willing to put up with them for the summer season if it could buy us another six months to take a closer look at this. The sidewalk plan just went away last week and I just hate the idea of having so much costly major, irreparable construction, things like holes being drilled into the fissures to bolt down slabs of rock. I can't picture what will happen with the next flood when the floods push on those rocks. I would think it would tear up the fissures. I'm not an engineer, but I would like to study more before we go on with all of this. The thing about this plan is that there are so many things about it that don't make sense that I can't address them all. It's the permanent closing of eliza springs and sunken garden, which I think is a tremendous loss to the community. It's the crowding of everybody into the shallow end during the summer. It's the silting up. It's not looking at the cause of the silting, which is all of this upstream development. And when I've heard Mr. Duncan asked whalted happen if we didn't meet the deadline and begin this construction now, what if we just left the ropes up during the summer, the main problem seems to be the threat of another lawsuit like we had last summer. And maybe the people who are pushing the lawsuits will rule the world, but I really hate to see them do this to barton springs. [Buzzer]. And I hope that you will consider giving us more time. Thank you.

>>Mayor Watson: helga Williams? [applause].

>> Good evening. I have a donated time from Diane bleak?

>>.

>>Mayor Watson: is ms. Bleek here? thank you. Ma'am. You will have up to six minutes if you need it, ms. Williams.

>> I'll try to do less. I know you like that.

>>Mayor Watson: it's always good to see you.

>> Good evening Council. My name is helga Williams. My ooim a regular swimmer at intrings for almost 25 years now. I swim twice a day morning and even year-round and I'm probably the most persistent swimmer of all the women swimmers and the last thing I want to see in barton springs is construction. And I do sympathize with the opposing voices which you probably hear a lot of them after me speak in here. But I'm also a real lift and what needs to be done needs to be done better sooner than later. Let's get it over with. The argument that March and april is possibly flooding season doesn't stand with me because last year flooding occurred in october, november and January. And we all remember the historical memorial day flood which was of course in the end of may. So we don't know when mother nature comes with another flood. If you're going to have that in the spring or in the fall. The way it looks right now in the weather report is we don't have a lot of rain this spring, so we may have it in the fall, so it's better to do it now. The other one is the lost revenue is also an argument because. Four weeks closing. Last year because of the roping and a lot of controversy prop began da, I'm sure the City lost a lot of revenue which can't be recovered this summer if we can get rid of the ropes and complete the required work. The recommendation from the Planning Commission and the environmental board as a result of the close cooperation with City staff and that is a copy I gave you. It's the report that the Planning Commission had requested from me. Of course, we cannot make everybody happy, but I believe we work reasonable solutions out and all the swimmers I talk to and explain the situation were satisfied. And if you even save the City a little bit of money by eliminating one of the concrete stairs in that process. I have to say the City staff bented backwards to consider all the concerns of the swimmers. I'd like to state my personal appreciation to the staff members and ron sparks from parks department and roger duncan, pat murphy, jim roads and Robert hanson from drainage utilities. You cannot continue -- we can continue -- if we can continue working together like that, which I believe we will, if you get that construction done in a timely manner and hopefully also find a way to keep lap swimming in the channel open at certain times of the day during the construction. There's nothing that makes barton springs swimmer more happy than if they can do their daily dip. And I hope you will support that request. I would like to that report to the Planning Commission, it's item 5. I just want to bring that briefly up. It's not something that we have to vote on, but that is a real concern from what I understand from ron sparks is in this case the company who has the ada contract, he has worked with before and it was not any problem. But in general, 108 dollars of liquidated damage for construction like that in the pool area where that much revenue can be lost, that shouldn't happen. And I think the City needs to look at how the state is doing the liquidate the damage. And I would appreciate if you could look in the future specifications into that and make your recommendation that the architects who write the specifications understand that 108 dollar on barton springs pool, that just doesn't make any sense. Otherwise, I would like you to approve the staff recommendation and to -- if you have any question to the other items, like the -- why we changed the ramp over there, that was -- the reason for that is the ramp went before -- past the one-eighth marker. It is the starting point for lap swimmers. And on cold days you have to walk 65 feet, that is how long the ramp is down in the shallow water and you have to turn around and go to the one-eighth marker. Because there's a handrail on that ramp. So now the ramp coming from the other side stops before the one-eighth marker and so it's not west of the swimmers. That was the biggest concern on that. And otherwise I try to keep as much construction out of the pool basin itself. And that is the reason I tried to eliminate whatever concrete I could get eliminated out of the pool. So that's where the -- my recommendation came into the Planning Commission. And I think -- I did well with my six minutes.

>>Mayor Watson: yeah. You have 38 seconds left.

>> How much?

>>Mayor Watson: 38. You don't have to use it. [Laughter].

>> I'll talk another time about that.

>>Mayor Watson: you don't have to. Al st. Louis? there you are. John mcbride will follow Mr. St. Louis.

>> Thank you, Mr. Mayor. I think I have somebody that donated some time to me. Jenny young -- jean young.

>>Mayor Watson: all right. Then you will have up to six minutes if you need it.

>> Thank you. I need more than that. First I want to thank the members of the Council and their staff who has been instrumental I believe in helping toss out that silly dam idea. And also the --.

>>Mayor Watson: silly dam idea or damn silly.

>> Either way you want to take it. It was a bad idea. And I'm ashamed of the City staff for proposing such a thing.

>>Mayor Watson: oh.

>> I'm also ashamed of them for proposing a plan that could cost anywhere between two and a half and 15 million dollars. And the reason I come up with those figures is that the sidewalk was initially projected at 145,000 and it ended up at 70074 thousand last time I looked at it. So in other words, you have to throw in a multiple about five to six for each of these projects. But first of all, I want to remind you that joke about the biggest lies that you've heard. The first lie is number one the check is in the mail. The second lie that we're hearing tonight is these construction projects are needed to satisfy federal requirements. We've been hearing that lie at all the boards and commission meetings. Now, the dam was originally required as a, quote, federal requirement. The underwater sidewalk was, quote, a federal requirement. Neither of those are true. And the same with some of these projects. Basically fish and wildlife has told me in numb numerous occasions that they just want the water not lowered so the salamanders aren't stranded and secondarily they wanted something done about the beach. So they've been kind of open, I think, and I hope they'll be open to an extension of time so that you don't have to be put in the position of closing barton springs a month after it on opens or should open. It should open this weekend. We have had above normal temperatures, so I think the need is going to be there. It bothers me when I come down there on the days when it's closed and people line up by that fence, look down at that beautiful water and can't get access to it and they go away unhappy, especially when they hear it's for some reason like salamander protection. So I think it puts you in kind of an awkward public position to approve closing it at this time. In terms of the flooding potential, if you look at your rainfall map over the years, you will find that april and may are very high flood potential months. Not every year, but generally. You have to go with the proenlts on this. We also have the second potential rainfall season, september and october, but it's less likely to flood because the creek is usually dryer. But anyway, november would be a better time to begin this project if it has to be done. I would recommend that you hold off on this. Some of this work can be done -- the ada, a lot of it could be done on Thursdays or even in a week it could be done probably if you did it with your routine maintenance. So there's no need to really close it for a month for ada. I don't have time to address each and every project here in six minutes, but if any of you have any questions, I'll be glad to give you specific points on each of those proposed projects, including the gates, why the gates are really not needed at this time. So basically I'm asking don't do it at this time. Don't shut down barton springs at this time to satisfy these so-called federal requirements, which are more flexible as we foupd with the dam and the found with the dam and the sidewalk than the City staff have presented them to you. They're not really requirements. The main requirement is don't harm the salamander. And we can do that in other ways. There are other less drastic means of accommodating the salamander. I've been swimming there, this summer will be my 25th season. I've never stepped on a salamander. I think that threat has been greatly exaggerated. So I would urge you to think of the public, think of the joy that that place brings to people this time of year. And if you do think of that and value the public and the public's need to access barton springs, then maybe you will take a closer look at what your City staff are telling you, a more critical look at what they're bringing to you, because I think they're putting you in a very awkward, awkward, situation. And if you have any questions, like I say, on any specific project, I'd be glad to comment on it. Having swam there as much as I have, I know where the silt comes from. And I'm convinced in looking at this project that except for possibly the lowering of the beach and I have some reservations on that, but I don't see any net gain to the salamander or the swimmer in what is proposed. If I did see some net gain, I'd be happy to support it because I basically have supported the salamander since its inception back in 1990 in terms of the identification of it as a unique species. But at this time I can't support spending valuable tax money in the way it's being proposed without any real benefit to either the salamander or the swimmers. And that's what bothers me about this plan, the way it was put together, rammed through, reconstructed after the hearings and then we weren't given a chance to comment until now. And I think that's because we went to your staff and then you decided to open it up to the boards and commissions and make it a more public procedure. And I'm grateful for that. We need that. Thank you.

>>Mayor Watson: thank you. John mcbride? Mr. Mcbride signed up against. Mr. Bellinger? is Paul mann hoor? okay here. Okay. You will have up to six minutes.

>> Okay. I really appreciate the opportunity to come before this Council. I've talked to most of you about this issue one way or another personally. I'm rather proud of the City of Austin as the capital of Texas. And I know every one of my Council Members my name and they know me by name. My name, by the way, for those in the audience, is frank bellinger.

>>Mayor Watson: I was about to say why are you getting into that? [laughter].

>> I'm here to urge you to reject a proposal to excavate the barton springs pool because first of all, it violates four key principles. I think that any provision should -- to change a pool should result in a minimum change to the pool. And any proposal that vofls excavating a major portion of the pool bottom or that vofls the construction of a dam does not meet this condition. Although the dpam is out of the picture for the moment, it's going to be back in if the under water cleaning doesn't work and we have not tested that at this point. We don't know for sure that it works. Robert points out that it worked in satisfy world, but sea world is a didn't problem than we have. We have a sedimentation problem, not an algae problem. You have to move tons and tons of dirt out of that pool. And I don't know if this machine is going to be capable of doing it. I really do hope so. But that's beside the point what I hope for. I think that any provision that you do, anything that you do to barton springs pool should be reversible. If it doesn't work or if it turns out to be wrong, what do we do about it? do we change it back? if we excavate the beach and that doesn't work, will we be ainl to restore it to its previous condition, and I don't think we would ever do that. Rolling the beach -- I don't think addresses the real problem of salamander habitat. As identified in the habitat conservation plan, this problem is sedimentation. That is the 800 pound gorilla that the salamander faces. Water quality is sufficiently good for it, food supply is adequate, the 800 pound gorilla that this animal space faiss is the sedimentation from the upstream development. The last problem I have with this plan is that it pits the salamander against the public. In the long run, salamanders don't benefit from the erosion of public spoerlt. Certainly excavating the beach and permanently closing the sunken gardens and eliza springs is going to strengthen the bond and I think that is bad for the salamander. I think that this proposal will also -- another drawback on this proposal it forecloses other more reasonable approaches that we've presented and the staff has rejected out of hand. 15,000 Acres of environmental easement is -- should count a long way toward mitigation on any salamander take that we have in the pool. And fish and wildlife has not been able to document the number of 78 salamanders. I asked where that number comes from and they say well, it isn't zero, is it? and I say well, it might not be zero. It might be one or two a year. I don't think it's seven to eight a week. That's his figure, seven or eight salamanders per week come multiply by 52 weeks, he says that's 200 salamanders a year will be taken from recreational activity on the beach. And he provides absolutely zero documentation on that number. I think what that number does do is it presents an insurmountable object ta cancel into mitigation. If you have to mitigate for 200 salamanders per year, that's different from mitigating for one or two. I think that you can increase the depth of the beach so the salamander can descend below the lower line of the water line when the pool is lowered. These guys say, well, we cannot clean the sarnd habitat that deep. And we've been through this round and round. They say they can clean the salamander habitat to a depth of one nach to three inches. They can't go below that. I don't even think they can do that using the present methods. And I'll get into that in a few minutes. I think you could simulate a natural spring outlet and the -- in the area of the salamander habitat using some kind of back flushing equipment and I'm had sure most of you have seen what I have proposed on the website. I believe also that laying flag stone over salamander habitat goes a long way toward preventing sedimentation from impacting within the salamander habitat. If the sea world machine works, I hope it does, I really do hope the sea world machine works. And if it works, we can use the sea world machine on the flag stone, four foot -- four square feet of flag stone you can get a swae world machine on that and if the flag stone is spaced properly, we can -- we will have a workable solution. We will go a long way toward fixing this problem. The last thing I would like to say, whatever I do, we need to test the mitigation straeg strategic first before we do anything crazy or radical in this case. Radical as excavating 11,000 square feet of habitat one shot, first bank bang. It's gone. You're not going to get that back. Let's mitigate first. [Buzzer].

>>Mayor Watson: thank you. [Applause].

>> Is there any questions?

>>Mayor Watson: no questions.

>>Spelman: do I understand you to say we should not be doing anything radical?

>> yes. Spell do you mind if I quote you on that later? I may quote you back on that at some point.

>> That's fine with me, Mr. Spelman. Beverly, I hope your cough is getting better.

>>Griffith: thank you. It is.

>>Mayor Watson: is bobby rigby here. Ms. Bessy, you will also have six minutes if you need it. Thank you, Council.

>> Thank you, Council. I am a rear round swimmer at barton springs and I want to tell you that first I am a salamander advocate before being a swimmer as much as I love barton springs and that spring water. I asked for the extra three minutes because I want to make a public apology to roger duncan and to Robert hanson. I had Written a letter after the permit was issued in october. I had asked to be part of the negotiations on the sidewalk and what the sidewalk would look like. That was agreed upon. It didn't happen. And then I wrote this letter and I mentioned Robert and roger in that letter. After that Robert and I talked and it was a communication problem between the two of us. And so I told Robert that I would write another letter to fish and wildlife that was also cc'd to you. I did not get it done, so my apology ies, rocket. -- Robert. As for the issue of barton springs, the -- I'm going to speak directly to the beach area. I'm in favor of everything else that you're doing in phase a construction on the pool. The beach area decisions I think were based on a very small percentage of very verbal swimmers of whom I admit I am one. In the interim a all these things have been happening, I have discovered that there are other users of the beach and I'd like to point out some of those users. And I come up with a total of nine different users. One are the waders who use the beach for exercise. Two, there are weak or beginner swimmers who use the beach for security so they don't have to swim out over water that's above their heeds. Three, there are swimmers who use the beach as a resting area or a social area rather than staying in the shallow water where all the kids are. There are swimmers who think that the waders do not squash the salamanders and therefore want the beach to remain. There are advocates of beach removal. There are the no action advocates who don't want to modify the pool for any reason whatsoever. It has nothing to do with whether they're squashing salamanders or not. The automatic qat tick staff has said they need a staging area to do their rescues in deep water. And then there are the older adolescents and parents who use the area -- use the beach area to do their recreation and stay away from the more verbal children down at the shallow end. So we have nine users that I have counted. Those nine user groups have not been represented in this whole process. Not because the City has not made that available to them, but a lot of swimmers are shy, a lot of swimmers do not want to go up against the more verbal swimmers. I can say that for a fact as I have been beat upon by some of the other swimmers for my opinions. And so what I'm asking is that whether the beach is removed or whether you decide to postpone it, I would like to ask the Council to please use this summer to come up with a survey that would be designed by a professional, not by awe qat ticks, not by the swimmers, not by City staff, but with input from us to find out just exactly how many people do use the beach or not use the beach and what their feelings are about the beach. I've spoken with Robert. He thinks that perhaps there would be enough money in the budget that you're being asked to approve for the improvements to the pool for phase a where something like that could be done. I would be happy to find swimmer volunteers who would man tables during the summertime to get to get that information and then in the fall during phase b construction, if there are other things that perhaps could be done to have more to satisfy more user groups in the pool so that it's not just this one group that's being answered to now and that -- I have counted at least four other groups where there are modifications that could be done that would satisfy both the fish and wildlife service, city staff, hopefully aquatics staff and then the swimmers. And I'd like to see all those represented, if you would be willing to do that this summer. Let's see. I want to thank also the City staff, particularly ron sparks and his work with the ada improvements --. [Buzzer]. And with our request to have the ramp moved. [Buzzer]. Ron is very flexible, open and roger and Robert have also been if not always easy to work with --. [Buzzer]. But very good to work with. Thank you.

>>Mayor Watson: thank you. Having somebody thanking staff, I'm tempted to let you talk as long as you want. Thank you. Steven beers.

>> Thank you for letting me have the opportunity to speak to y'all. After a tough week, I'm feeling much better and that's partly because I think this plan is a lot better without the dam and paving a significant part of the bottom of barton springs pool. Also on your agenda, the modifying of the gates to allow a gradual draw down, a pump to recirculate the spring water and the ada improvements are all good in my mind. I still have concerns, though, about the excavation and the new wurnd water cleaning methods, which I believe remain to be proven. Y'all have heard about this sea world machine that's going to operate in the shallow end. Also I've heard talk about some heavy suction equipment in the deep, deep end where there isn't salamander habitat. I believe one of the speakers asked, well, is this sea world machine going to suck up salamanders, and they said, well, we're not going to operate that in the salamander habitat. Well, my understanding of -- after asking them and reading everything is they're not going to ever -- the big difference with the cleaning methods are they'll go from cleaning -- formerly we had cleaned, I believe, on the order of once a week by drawing down the pool and using high pressure hoses and so forth. Well, now we're going to have a situation where basically there is never a draw down. We're allowed no more than four draw down cleanings per year. And I think what we're seeing right now with a reduced schedule of cleaning is very apparent that the entire pool bottom up until very recently was covered with two inches thick of sediment and algae. And all of the primary threat to the salamander listed in the habitat conservation plan is loss of habitat due to sediment and algae, exactly the condition we're seeing. Well, they're saying we can clean underwater with these new methods using a garden hose, a low pressure garden hose maybe with a nozzle and we'll spray it under water in our wet suit and the other thing is suction. So somebody is out there under water with a gar ken hose and a vacuum cleaner cleaning the salamander habitat. I think perhaps if they say it can work, or it's demonstrated to work, that's good, but I want to see it work. I want to see the pool cleaned. And I frankly would like to see it before a big permanent changes are made because it's a major disruption to the salamander habitat to lower the beach. However temporary that is. But even after the new beach is in, it still has to be cleaned, so I think that this cleaning should be demonstrated. [Buzzer]. I would like to sum up very -- -- -- quickly to say -- could I have 30 seconds, Mayor?

>>Mayor Watson: if I do that, then I have to give everybody 30 seconds. I appreciate your comments.

>> Okay. Well, I'm pretty well happy with this. I just ask you to --.

>>Mayor Watson: please don't push it.

>> Okay.

>>Mayor Watson: your time is up. Thank you. Ms. Ascott.

>> Good evening. I'm karen ascott. I'm serving as the conservation chair for the sierra club. On behalf of the Austin sierra club, I would like to thank you, the City Council and the staff for all your efforts, all the work done so far for complying with the federal laws on this matter. It's obviously been quite challenging. To accomplish so much and still maintain the pool's natural and historic character. The plan has come a long way in a short time and it looks a lot better. We favor the minimum of changes possible and we greatly appreciate the vast reduction in the amount of concrete plans to be added to the pool. We also -- also, I'd like to add that the ada improvements I've seen tonight do look very good. We do still have a few reservations about a couple of as spekts of the conservation plan. As steve beers mentioned, we're worried about the number of draw downs. There are only four per year allowed under the plan. I think it's a habitat issue as much as a swimmer issue. It's not just a complaint for swimmers or anything. There is a lot of muck at the bottom of the pool right now. And the chief threat to the salamander survival is the buildup of sediment and algae. And that's -- that's the final ruling which listed the salamander as endangered. So we support the efforts to clean the habitat without the draw downs, but we would also really like to see the new method put into use and successful before any permanent changes are made to the pool. So we request also that you ask the fish and wildlife service for an extension of time. I realize they've said that's not possible, but things have changed a lot and I hope you could at least try for that to see if there exists any better option or, excuse me, to see if the methods, the cleaning methods work and also to investigate whether any better option exists for -- rather than excavating the beach because I wonder about the short-term effect fekt on the salamanders. It just seems very disruptive to destroy their habitat before something new exists, before a new habitat exists and so on. So basically we ask you -- we urge you to be cautious while you're considering such major and irreversible changes to such a unique place. Thank you.

>>Mayor Watson: thank you. John quarry. Welcome, Mr. Quarry.

>> How is everybody?

>>Mayor Watson: not bad.

>> I've got to babysit tonight, as every night, so you have to excuse that.

>>Mayor Watson: my wife says if they're your kids, you're not really baby-sitting.

>> Good point. Good point.

>>Mayor Watson: we call that co-nurturing.

>> Okay. I just have some quick questions which apparently everyone else hadn't thought of be may. I haven't really been applying myself to this issue very much because of trying to make some money remodeling my house, etcetera, and working on the get holly out of the neighborhood project. But anyway, you know, I have never even seen a salamander. Has anybody seen a salamander in that pool? you saw two? has anybody seen a dead salamander? you've seen a dead salamander? how many? I've never seen a dead --. [Inaudible].

>> A dozen through the years. Well, anyway, I'm wondering how long has that pool been there that people have been swimming in it? does anybody know that?

>> 10,000 years? and I'm wondering is there really a problem with the 10,000 years of people and salamander getting along. If we took the people away from the salamander, maybe we don't have salamanders any more. You know, you have to remind of that project that I guess was Mayor butler brought some nutrias in and now we have those creditors up and down the river which are really scary. We don't have to worry about anyone trying to swim in the river any more because those nutrias are a knowing. But getting on to what this is really about. This reminds about me about the bible story about sol Monday and the baby. And the two women are the environmental lifts and the irresponsible developers, okay, because -- I'm a developer. Everyone is a developer. But the two women in the bible, the one was ready to say, well, if I can't have him, you can't have hismt and one way I can do that for sure is go along with sol Monday's idea of cutting the baby in half. And I think that what we're here for is because of a lot of adolescent conduct on the part of people wanting to develop over the water supply. And I think the correct -- the politically correct and also the good attitude for the environmental lifts is is to we would prefer positive have the water, if they're going to have it that way, let them have the baby. We don't take it. But the next point is having said that, do we really need to do anything. I mean, is there any real reason to take away what most kids use, that beach area. I've never stepped on a salamander. I've never seen one. I've been swimming there 27 years. And you know, I don't know anybody else who has. I think the only real problem with the pool is the pollution. So again, we have the adolescent element. [Buzzer]. And I think you need to stand up to those people. I don't know why we're not.

>>Mayor Watson: thank you. [Applause].

>>Mayor Watson: those are all the people signed up to speak on item 69. I'll entertain a motion to close the public hearing. Motion is made by Council Member Slusher, seconded by Council Member Spelman. Is there any discussion? hearing none, all those in favor say aye. Opposed say no. Motion carries with the Mayor Pro Tem off the dias.

>>Goodman: I'm here.

>>Mayor Watson: motion carries with the Mayor Pro Tem voting aye. We need to take up item no. 30 And item no. 69. And so I'll open before the floor to discussion. Is there any discussion or any questions? Council Member Slusher?

>>Slusher: we need a short presentation on I think what's in no. 30?

>>Mayor Watson: that's a good idea. Mr. Duncan, do you want to come forward?

>> vicky shu better with iss -- shbert with iss.

>> Item number 30 is a budget amendment, watershed department cip. It includes the funding for the items that I outlined earlier in the presentation, including such items as the pump installation, the limestone slabs, the beach excavation and it also has money in there for the proper permits and the construction documents, the stainless steel grout, rail around the pool, the purchase and installation of the dam gate modifications and filter fabric sediment fence, if you will for protection during construction, silt fence, restoration of the area. Those are the principal items contained in that 469,800.

>>Mayor Watson: anybody have any questions of Mr. Duncan about item number 30?

>>Spelman: I have a question about 69. The people who have testified against the improvements you're talking about making in the pool seem to be focused for the most part on lowering the beach and on the sea world vacuum cleaners. And to my mind those are the most serious concern is what happens in the vacuum cleaners don't work and what happens if the salamanders don't come back to what used to be the beach once we lower it? what kind of flexibility do we have in the event that it turns out that our ideas don't work out?

>> well, Council Member, the flexibility if the underwater cleaner does not work is to come back next year and put in the dam. The dam was proposed in order to clean the shallow end of the pool where the slipperiness occurs and the algae builds up and that dam in place would allow you to clean that without lowering the pool. What we're trying to do now is clean it literally underwater without lowering the pool. If we cannot do that, we still have the option under the existing permit to come back and put in that dam. We don't want to do that. We're hopeful we don't have to, but that is the other option. As -- and I'm sorry, your second question was?

>>Spelman: what happens if we lower the beach and the salamanders don't come back?

>> I think Robert could probably speak to that with his experience. We have seen already areas where we have had gravel and salamander habitat, it has moved and we have rehabilitate at that timed areas. Do you want to speak to that?

>> yes. Last april we scraped this entire beach area down to the clay and caliche base. There's a very thin layer of gravel that provides habitat for the salamanders. Parks and recreation determined that if we were going to reopen the -- this area we needed to remove all the silt and sediment. We scraped it down to the substrate. We came in with new material. Salamanderers have come back in. The lowering of the beach area will not have any more impact on the salamander than what we've done in the past. And that kind of activity.

>>Spelman: so basically we've done the exactly same thing we've done on the beach as we're proposing to do here, but we haven't lowered it by three feet.

>> We used to drive tractors down it on a regular basis?

>>Spelman: tractors?

>> yes. And dregs. Spell I was going to say you were very careful with those tractors, I'm sure.

>> I might point out also that the underwater cleaning devices that sea world uses are not the only cleaning mechanisms that will be used. Specifically we want to deal with slipperiness in the shallow end of the pool, but in terms of cleaning other areas of the pool, we can use high pressure vacuums and we have numerous types of equipment we can use in addition to the sea world equipment.

>>Spelman: so specifically the sea world equipment does not work for the shallow end, what's our fall back plan going to be at least in the short run?

>> we will have to revisit the dam idea.

>>Spelman: the dam idea indeed. In the meantime the algae is going to build up over the course of the next year?

>> well, we have a number of limit -- limited number of draw downs through the years, so we can deal to a certain extent with slipperiness, the same way we have.

>>Spelman: okay. Thanks.

>>Mayor Watson: any more questions? Council Member Slusher?

>>Slusher: Mr. Henson, would you talk a little bit about the stepping on salamanders that several people have brought up because I think that's a good -- a very logical common sense question. What I've been told is that people don't necessarily step on them, but they're under the rocks, might get injured like that.

>> I'll be glad to. In fact, yesterday morning I went out with tim jones to upper barton springs and tim videotaped our survey work there. And he noticed how careful we are. We know that when we look for salamanders in the pool or in eliza springs, if we step on rocks, if we're not careful, there's a good chance we're stepping on a salamander. The reason most folks have steppedded on smarnds don't realize it is they don't pick up the rocks and look under them. When I was out there with tim yesterday morning, there was one rock I stepped around, I picked it up, there was a female. If I had stepped on that rock, that salamander would have are resulted in a mortality at that point. The reason that -- these animals live in the spaces in the roxs. If people are stepping up and down the rocks and poom know in the summertime there are five to 600 people along the beach area of barton springs. We don't go in there and pick up all those rocks after those people are in there to see if there are dead salamanders but we have lowered the pool and found as many as 84 salamanders in that area. We know the salamanders habitat that area. If we have 600 people on a summer day walking up and down that beach area, common sense tells you that more tall tees are occurring, yes. -- Mortalities are occurring, yes.

>>Slusher: there was a speaker with a concern about the floods pulling on the rocks above the fissures and tearing them. Have you thought that one through?

>> there are numerous ways to secure the rocks in the fis sures area. Last night I had the opportunity to talk to ron beel. He has volunteered his expertise in actually swul ping skull thing the limestone slab and fissures areas. There are some excellent materials that can be used underwater that are very strong. Actually, we might be able to place these without any drilling or boring at all.

>>Slusher: really? and you expect them to stay there during a flood?

>> exactly.

>>Slusher: okay. Tell me a little bit about the sunken gardens and eliza springs because it's unfortunate that those are closed. Tell me about that.

>> Eliza springs has been basically closed to public access for years. And that has been park policy. There's a fence around there. I don't know if -- I have contacted parks and recreation concerning what park police would do if someone was found swimming in eliza. I was told they would be asked to leave immediately. I don't know if that's true that we have allowed public access there in recent years. In sunken gardens. I became very concerned last year with the activities that I saw going on. And I felt it prudent that because of endangerment to the salamander that we go ahead and fence it off, at least temporarily until we can come up with a proper management plan for that area.

>>Slusher: okay. And those activities were?

>> everything from tran sients taking baths with soap and shampoo to disposable diapers to 12 packs of beer cans being thrown in there to as many as 20 people and numerous dogs swimming in there at one time.

>>Slusher: okay. I don't see Mr. Frederick? Mr. Electricner is still here. If the City were at some point going come up with a plan for protecting that, would that have some sort of limited use of it is the service open to that kind of idea?

>> certainly the -- we would take any proposal that you bring forward. One that was brought up during the public hearing was to put like a drain across the bottom of people. And we would entertain those ideas. [Inaudible].

>>Slusher: of course that wouldn't deal with the shampoo problem. We would need some monitoring or something for that. Okay. So y'all be open to that. Basically we've decided to solve the larger problem first is what you're telling me?

>> we need to have a management plan too for the area. It's also clearly not an appropriate use for a very unique eex logical feature like sunken gore dens and the springs.

>>Slusher: okay. That's my questions, Mayor.

>>Mayor Watson: any other questions. I'll entertain a motion -- I'm sorry, Mayor Pro Tem.

>>Goodman: I want to talk about the vacuum cleaners for a minute. I think that is kind of a legitimate thing to ask whether we couldn't have tried them out first before we purchased them and short of put all our eggs in that one basket.

>> We have tested them, Mayor Pro Tem, in the pool and after the tests and again I apologize, but we actually have an underwater video of the test in the pool. We were satisfied with the test to the extent that we think they will work and that's when we decided to proceed with the purchase and delaying the dam.

>>Goodman: okay. Were we going to see that tonight? that's not part of your presentation?

>> it's not part of our presentation. I'm sorry. But we have tested them. That was the -- the results. Test were the basis for deleting the dam from this proposal.

>>Goodman: how many times did you try it?

>> once. We had somewhat of an extended test, however, but it seemed to work well.

>>Goodman: okay. After all the other changes, that's the question that I've been getting the most is are we sure, or sure enough to purchase them. And were tests sufficient that we are fairly confident in this investment.

>> We believe they are and at the time this they come forward to Council, Council will see the purchase contract for these. We will have the video of their operations in the pool for that presentation.

>>Goodman: okay. Mayor, there was one more thing. We just had a note from ms. Leonard and that was about in the renovations of the facilities around the pool, is it possible to introduce a solar powered heating element for the shower water in the men's part? [applause].

>> Real men don't need hot water? [laughter].

>> It's already in the plan. It's already -- Mayor Pro Tem, it's already in the contract.

>>Goodman: thank you.

>> And al doesn't --. [Inaudible].

>>Mayor Watson: particularly from ms. Leonard. [Laughter].

>> And the Mayor Pro Tem.

>>Mayor Watson: all right.

>> Al, if you don't want the hot water, just don't turn that nobody on. [Laughter]. -- That knob on. [Laughter].

>>Mayor Watson: any further questions? all right. Let's do this this way. Why don't we first take up item no. 69 And I'll entertain a motion on item number 69, which would be to grant the limited adjustment, assuming that's the motion, or to deny the limited adjustment. Whatever we do on that. Motion has been made by Council Member Garcia, secked by Council Member Spelman to grant the limited adjustment as set forth in item no. 69. Any discussion? hearing none, all those in favor say aye. Opposed say no. The motion carries. That will take us back to item number 30. I'll entertain a motion to amend that ordinance. It will be on all three readings to amend the ordinance of the 1998-99 capital budget and transfer an appropriate 400 $70,000 from the '99 cip contingency account to the new project called barton springs project. Phase 1. Seconded by Council Member Slusher. Is there any discussion? Mayor Pro Tem?

>>Goodman: one comment. As we've discussed all this for long, long hours now, I think we do all know that the major threat to water quality and lives of the salamanders and continuation of their habitat is the quality of recharge. And that does not really happen with anything that we do at the pool. So although we do have an immediate need to -- with fish and wildlife direction protect the habitat and the salamanders at the pool, this should in no way make us come place sent or think that the real danger is not elsewhere. [Applause].

>>Mayor Watson: clrb. Councilmember Slusher? [one moment, please] opposed say no. Motion carries, we're adjourned. Thank you all very much.

>> Can we go swimming?

>>Mayor Watson: that would be a good way to end the evening. Thank you all.

End of Council Session Closed Caption Log